Out or Safe?

[ronald]

Originally Posted by HugoTafurst

Just wondering, ....
Runner coming into second, F6 has the ball and is setup to make the easy tag..... Runner slides in (legally) and during the collision, ball is dislodged from fielder's posession.
Safe or out?

safe

[MNBlue]

Originally Posted by ronald

safe

So, Hugo, correct me if I'm wrong.

Your point is that it is OK for the offense to cause the ball to dislodge by doing nothing more than running but it isn't OK for the defense to dislodge a runner from the base doing nothing more than attempting to make a tag?

[HugoTafurst]

Originally Posted by MNBlue

So, Hugo, correct me if I'm wrong.

Your point is that it is OK for the offense to cause the ball to dislodge by doing nothing more than running but it isn't OK for the defense to dislodge a runner from the base doing nothing more than attempting to make a tag?

I think you got my point wrong...


I suggested the "runner sliding scenario" as no different - two players playing the game and the end result might just be what it is - out or safe...

The question is, what (if anything) makes this play different?

[AtlUmpSteve]

Originally Posted by MNBlue

So, Hugo, correct me if I'm wrong.

Your point is that it is OK for the offense to cause the ball to dislodge by doing nothing more than running but it isn't OK for the defense to dislodge a runner from the base doing nothing more than attempting to make a tag?

So, Mark, are you saying on that play is the defense doing nothing more than attempting a tag?

I'm with your point; and with the explanation given in the Hrbek/Gant play (but disagree with the judgment!!). If the runner has no more control of his/her body than to come off when the defense is applying a normal tag, then that runner is out. But when added force is applied (like this running collision) and that causes the runner to come off, I have a dead ball and a safe runner.

[youngump]

Originally Posted by AtlUmpSteve

I have a dead ball and a safe runner.

A dead ball with all other runners awarded the base you think they would have gone to, or you're bringing runners back? Say you've got a runner 5 or 20 feet from Home?

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by youngump

A dead ball with all other runners awarded the base you think they would have gone to, or you're bringing runners back? Say you've got a runner 5 or 20 feet from Home?

The rule you would be using to kill the ball here would also direct you to place runners where you think they belong. No way would any umpire worth his salt let the defense gain advantage by killing the ball this way.

[MNBlue]

Originally Posted by AtlUmpSteve

So, Mark, are you saying on that play is the defense doing nothing more than attempting a tag?

I'm with your point; and with the explanation given in the Hrbek/Gant play (but disagree with the judgment!!). If the runner has no more control of his/her body than to come off when the defense is applying a normal tag, then that runner is out. But when added force is applied (like this running collision) and that causes the runner to come off, I have a dead ball and a safe runner.

No, not saying that. Just playing devil's advocate.

I'm in agreement that once the runner is safe, contact by the defense that causes the runner to disengage should not be rewarded.

Let's extrapolate from the video. What will you use (besides common sense) to judge that the runner's momentum caused the disengagement and not the contact by the defense?

[Crabby_Bob]

Originally Posted by AtlUmpSteve

[...] If the runner has no more control of his/her body than to come off when the defense is applying a normal tag, then that runner is out. But when added force is applied (like this running collision) and that causes the runner to come off, I have a dead ball and a safe runner.

We can all think of instances where even a normal tag knocks the runner off the base. How about a belly slide and the runner stops with the hand on the corner of the base. Now comes a normal tag that knocks the hand off the bag. OUT? I don't think so. The runner didn't voluntarily break contact with the bag nor did she leave it involuntarily due to her own momentum. [removed comment about dead ball]

[Tru_in_Blu]

I'd like to hear more about the dead ball call, and why. Particularly, as someone noted, if there are other active runners.

Obs = DDB
Int = DB

If DB, then must have been Int. If Int, the runner is out.

That doesn't parse my logic meter...

Perhaps the ball just remains live until playing action ceases? Sort out the guy being knocked off the base during a time out?

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by Tru_in_Blu

I'd like to hear more about the dead ball call, and why. Particularly, as someone noted, if there are other active runners.

Obs = DDB
Int = DB

If DB, then must have been Int. If Int, the runner is out.

Well, that isn't necessarily so.

That doesn't parse my logic meter...

Perhaps the ball just remains live until playing action ceases? Sort out the guy being knocked off the base during a time out?

I agree, but you will need to call time if you rule the runner out, as was the case in the video, because you are going to get a visitor who will want to chat.

[tcannizzo]

What I notice in the replay is that the original call was SAFE, then changed to OUT after F6 momentum to BR/R off 2B.

Bad call, and even worse ejection.

[AtlUmpSteve]

Originally Posted by youngump

A dead ball with all other runners awarded the base you think they would have gone to, or you're bringing runners back? Say you've got a runner 5 or 20 feet from Home?

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

The rule you would be using to kill the ball here would also direct you to place runners where you think they belong. No way would any umpire worth his salt let the defense gain advantage by killing the ball this way.

Bingo. The base I think they would have earned.

Originally Posted by Tru_in_Blu

I'd like to hear more about the dead ball call, and why. Particularly, as someone noted, if there are other active runners.

Obs = DDB
Int = DB

If DB, then must have been Int. If Int, the runner is out.

That doesn't parse my logic meter...

Perhaps the ball just remains live until playing action ceases? Sort out the guy being knocked off the base during a time out?

Here's the deal. No way can you NOT call a runner out off the base while being tagged, and keep the ball live. If you are ruling safe, you have to kill the ball, or else nothing makes sense. The defense has done something wrong (not obstruction by rule, because a player in possession cannot obstruct), but you simply cannot allow the defense to gain by that obviously inappropriate action.

So let's say you equate it to obstruction. Can't be, but certainly equivalent. Isn't it a dead ball when the obstructed runner is (apparently) tagged out? Delayed until then (or end of play), but dead in that instance. To me, the same logic should apply. And, the same ruling applying to other runners, awarded the bases judged where they belong, not dead and returned to last base touched.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by Tru_in_Blu

I'd like to hear more about the dead ball call, and why. Particularly, as someone noted, if there are other active runners.

Obs = DDB
Int = DB

If DB, then must have been Int. If Int, the runner is out.

That doesn't parse my logic meter...

Perhaps the ball just remains live until playing action ceases? Sort out the guy being knocked off the base during a time out?

This is not Obs or Int. This is rule 10. If you're using logic, equate killing the ball in this case with killing it when an OBS'd runner is tagged.