Out or Safe?

[MNBlue]

Originally Posted by rwest

What pop-up slide? You mean the one he attempted but couldn't complete because he was knocked off the bag? That pop-up slide?

Safe at second!

Yea, that one.

[MNBlue]

Originally Posted by youngump

Safe. No rule reference because it's not in the book. Allow me to posit a similar play and ask for your rule reference on it. Runner comes into second with a stand up double. Short stop takes the relay throw, runs up to the runner, bear hugs the runner and gently deposits her three feet off the base while tagging her.
It's not obstruction and there's no rule against it but the defense can't push a runner off a base to get an out.

Kind of like Hrbek in the 1991 Series?

[rwest]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

Speaking ASA

IMJ, this is not a collision which was inherently caused by the lay-out of the field and manner in which the game is played. I would consult with the PU and utilize 10.1 to rule the runner safe.

AFA the clip, you need to remember the league in which this occurred. And the TH was wrong, it was not a late slide, it was a well executed attempted pop-up.

He never completed his pop-up slide because of the collision at 2nd. What I find amazing is that there is no explicit rule to cover this. We have to go to rule 10.1. This should be covered more explicitly.

[Dakota]

Originally Posted by MNBlue

Kind of like Hrbek in the 1991 Series?

Careful... you'll be banned from MN for questioning that obviously correct call!

[Dakota]

Since Hrbek was brought up (of course, we knew it would be), the umpire that made the call explained that the runner has to maintain control of his body after contact with the bag, and that (in his judgment) Gant was falling off the base and would have broken contact with or without Hrbek.

You can't make the same argument for the play in this thread, but you can make the comparison that MNBlue did... if a (legal) collision can cause the loss of control of the ball, why can't a (legal) collision cause the loss of contact with the bag?

Change the timing of the play by just a fraction of a second... tag is applied just before the foot touches the bag, but the collision causes the ball to fall out. Safe, right? Why does the offense get the right to demonstrate loss of control of the ball, but the defense doesn't have the parallel right to demonstrate loss of control of the body in maintaining contact with the bag?

BTW, I would not have ruled that an out in amateur fastpitch, but the discussion is interesting...

[rwest]

Originally Posted by Dakota

Careful... you'll be banned from MN for questioning that obviously correct call!

But he will be welcomed here in Atlanta!

[MD Longhorn]

Safe in ASA. Safe in NCAA SB. Safe in Dixie. Safe in USSSA. Safe in USFA. Safe in NFHS. Safe in LL SB.

Safe in MLB. Safe in other OBR. Safe in NCAA BB. Safe in Pony. Safe in LL BB.

I'm sure I missed a few, but I hope I was clear in my opinion.

(I do agree that it's rather odd that this is not officially covered by the rules in ANY of these codes).

(Hrbek ruling was bad as well, but it was bad in judgement and not rule. There's no way Gant's momentum suddenly causes his leg to lift straight up.)

[HugoTafurst]

Originally Posted by MNBlue

So, Hugo, correct me if I'm wrong.

Your point is that it is OK for the offense to cause the ball to dislodge by doing nothing more than running but it isn't OK for the defense to dislodge a runner from the base doing nothing more than attempting to make a tag?

I think you got my point wrong...


I suggested the "runner sliding scenario" as no different - two players playing the game and the end result might just be what it is - out or safe...

The question is, what (if anything) makes this play different?

[AtlUmpSteve]

Originally Posted by MNBlue

So, Hugo, correct me if I'm wrong.

Your point is that it is OK for the offense to cause the ball to dislodge by doing nothing more than running but it isn't OK for the defense to dislodge a runner from the base doing nothing more than attempting to make a tag?

So, Mark, are you saying on that play is the defense doing nothing more than attempting a tag?

I'm with your point; and with the explanation given in the Hrbek/Gant play (but disagree with the judgment!!). If the runner has no more control of his/her body than to come off when the defense is applying a normal tag, then that runner is out. But when added force is applied (like this running collision) and that causes the runner to come off, I have a dead ball and a safe runner.

[youngump]

Originally Posted by AtlUmpSteve

I have a dead ball and a safe runner.

A dead ball with all other runners awarded the base you think they would have gone to, or you're bringing runners back? Say you've got a runner 5 or 20 feet from Home?

[MNBlue]

Originally Posted by AtlUmpSteve

So, Mark, are you saying on that play is the defense doing nothing more than attempting a tag?

I'm with your point; and with the explanation given in the Hrbek/Gant play (but disagree with the judgment!!). If the runner has no more control of his/her body than to come off when the defense is applying a normal tag, then that runner is out. But when added force is applied (like this running collision) and that causes the runner to come off, I have a dead ball and a safe runner.

No, not saying that. Just playing devil's advocate.

I'm in agreement that once the runner is safe, contact by the defense that causes the runner to disengage should not be rewarded.

Let's extrapolate from the video. What will you use (besides common sense) to judge that the runner's momentum caused the disengagement and not the contact by the defense?

[Crabby_Bob]

Originally Posted by AtlUmpSteve

[...] If the runner has no more control of his/her body than to come off when the defense is applying a normal tag, then that runner is out. But when added force is applied (like this running collision) and that causes the runner to come off, I have a dead ball and a safe runner.

We can all think of instances where even a normal tag knocks the runner off the base. How about a belly slide and the runner stops with the hand on the corner of the base. Now comes a normal tag that knocks the hand off the bag. OUT? I don't think so. The runner didn't voluntarily break contact with the bag nor did she leave it involuntarily due to her own momentum. [removed comment about dead ball]

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by youngump

A dead ball with all other runners awarded the base you think they would have gone to, or you're bringing runners back? Say you've got a runner 5 or 20 feet from Home?

The rule you would be using to kill the ball here would also direct you to place runners where you think they belong. No way would any umpire worth his salt let the defense gain advantage by killing the ball this way.

[Tru_in_Blu]

I'd like to hear more about the dead ball call, and why. Particularly, as someone noted, if there are other active runners.

Obs = DDB
Int = DB

If DB, then must have been Int. If Int, the runner is out.

That doesn't parse my logic meter...

Perhaps the ball just remains live until playing action ceases? Sort out the guy being knocked off the base during a time out?

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by Tru_in_Blu

I'd like to hear more about the dead ball call, and why. Particularly, as someone noted, if there are other active runners.

Obs = DDB
Int = DB

If DB, then must have been Int. If Int, the runner is out.

Well, that isn't necessarily so.

That doesn't parse my logic meter...

Perhaps the ball just remains live until playing action ceases? Sort out the guy being knocked off the base during a time out?

I agree, but you will need to call time if you rule the runner out, as was the case in the video, because you are going to get a visitor who will want to chat.