Out or Safe?

[Tru_in_Blu]

I'd have a hard time calling a runner out on a play like that. Runner had the base and the only reason he lost contact with it was because he was physically knocked off it.

[MNBlue]

Originally Posted by Tru_in_Blu

I'd have a hard time calling a runner out on a play like that. Runner had the base and the only reason he lost contact with it was because he was physically knocked off it.

I understand your point and basically agree.

But, to play devil's advocate a little bit, should his pop-up slide be considered and allow the out to stand?

[rwest]

Originally Posted by MNBlue

I understand your point and basically agree.

But, to play devil's advocate a little bit, should his pop-up slide be considered and allow the out to stand?

What pop-up slide? You mean the one he attempted but couldn't complete because he was knocked off the bag? That pop-up slide?

Safe at second!

[ronald]

I find it hard to accept that in a collision the runner must keep in contact with the base as his gained position is displaced. (this is what occurred in the video at 13 seconds. runner's foot touches the bag immediately followed by a tag on his lower shin followed by a collision that removed him from the base and altered his attained position).

I would not have an out at this time.

[MNBlue]

Originally Posted by rwest

What pop-up slide? You mean the one he attempted but couldn't complete because he was knocked off the bag? That pop-up slide?

Safe at second!

Yea, that one.

[HugoTafurst]

Just wondering, ....
Runner coming into second, F6 has the ball and is setup to make the easy tag..... Runner slides in (legally) and during the collision, ball is dislodged from fielder's posession.
Safe or out?

[Andy]

Copy and paste of what I posted on the SMSUA facebook page:

Looks ugly...both players are trying to make a play...no obstruction or interference. I think I just have a train wreck and go with the out. I'm open to being convinced otherwise, though.

[ronald]

Originally Posted by HugoTafurst

Just wondering, ....
Runner coming into second, F6 has the ball and is setup to make the easy tag..... Runner slides in (legally) and during the collision, ball is dislodged from fielder's posession.
Safe or out?

safe

[MNBlue]

Originally Posted by ronald

safe

So, Hugo, correct me if I'm wrong.

Your point is that it is OK for the offense to cause the ball to dislodge by doing nothing more than running but it isn't OK for the defense to dislodge a runner from the base doing nothing more than attempting to make a tag?

[HugoTafurst]

Originally Posted by MNBlue

So, Hugo, correct me if I'm wrong.

Your point is that it is OK for the offense to cause the ball to dislodge by doing nothing more than running but it isn't OK for the defense to dislodge a runner from the base doing nothing more than attempting to make a tag?

I think you got my point wrong...


I suggested the "runner sliding scenario" as no different - two players playing the game and the end result might just be what it is - out or safe...

The question is, what (if anything) makes this play different?

[AtlUmpSteve]

Originally Posted by MNBlue

So, Hugo, correct me if I'm wrong.

Your point is that it is OK for the offense to cause the ball to dislodge by doing nothing more than running but it isn't OK for the defense to dislodge a runner from the base doing nothing more than attempting to make a tag?

So, Mark, are you saying on that play is the defense doing nothing more than attempting a tag?

I'm with your point; and with the explanation given in the Hrbek/Gant play (but disagree with the judgment!!). If the runner has no more control of his/her body than to come off when the defense is applying a normal tag, then that runner is out. But when added force is applied (like this running collision) and that causes the runner to come off, I have a dead ball and a safe runner.

[youngump]

Originally Posted by AtlUmpSteve

I have a dead ball and a safe runner.

A dead ball with all other runners awarded the base you think they would have gone to, or you're bringing runners back? Say you've got a runner 5 or 20 feet from Home?

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by youngump

A dead ball with all other runners awarded the base you think they would have gone to, or you're bringing runners back? Say you've got a runner 5 or 20 feet from Home?

The rule you would be using to kill the ball here would also direct you to place runners where you think they belong. No way would any umpire worth his salt let the defense gain advantage by killing the ball this way.

[MNBlue]

Originally Posted by AtlUmpSteve

So, Mark, are you saying on that play is the defense doing nothing more than attempting a tag?

I'm with your point; and with the explanation given in the Hrbek/Gant play (but disagree with the judgment!!). If the runner has no more control of his/her body than to come off when the defense is applying a normal tag, then that runner is out. But when added force is applied (like this running collision) and that causes the runner to come off, I have a dead ball and a safe runner.

No, not saying that. Just playing devil's advocate.

I'm in agreement that once the runner is safe, contact by the defense that causes the runner to disengage should not be rewarded.

Let's extrapolate from the video. What will you use (besides common sense) to judge that the runner's momentum caused the disengagement and not the contact by the defense?

[Crabby_Bob]

Originally Posted by AtlUmpSteve

[...] If the runner has no more control of his/her body than to come off when the defense is applying a normal tag, then that runner is out. But when added force is applied (like this running collision) and that causes the runner to come off, I have a dead ball and a safe runner.

We can all think of instances where even a normal tag knocks the runner off the base. How about a belly slide and the runner stops with the hand on the corner of the base. Now comes a normal tag that knocks the hand off the bag. OUT? I don't think so. The runner didn't voluntarily break contact with the bag nor did she leave it involuntarily due to her own momentum. [removed comment about dead ball]