GT v FSU

[ronald]

Originally Posted by UmpireErnie

It was U3s call by the book, and if U3 sees the defense reach out to tag the runner and sees no space between the ball and the runner then U3 "saw" an out and makes the call based on that info. U3 may know at the time that the angle is bad and may go ahead and ask for help at the conclusion of the play or the coach may come out and ask U3 to get help based on the fact that U3 had a bad angle on the play.

This is NOT an appeal play.

I had a similar play in a high school game using 2-man mechanics this weekend. R1 at 3B, BU (me) between 2B and 3B to the 3B side of F6. Ground ball to F6. I move as much as possible toward 1B for the call which since F6 is fielding the ball is not to much. F6's throw is a bit wide of 1B and F3 does a great job of catching the ball while falling to her right and stretching a toe out toward 1B.

From my angle I could not see space between the foot and the bag, but I knew F3 was falling not only to the right of 1B but into the infield toward me creating an angle where I could potentially not see the foot come off the bag.

I gave a big sell out call based on the info I had, and then called time. I did not wait for a coach to come ask me to get help, I went to my partner who had the good angle on her coming off. He game me the info I needed and I immedeatly reversed the call. Done this way you avoid the perception that the coach came out and "talked you into it".

I know the age old axiom "never guess an out" but I submit that this is not guessing. You are making a call based on the info you have. This truly looked like from my angle a great play by F3. But I knew I might have been fooled. However, if my partner didn't get a look (might be busy watching a runner touch 3B for example) then we have to go with what I saw.

UmpireErnie,

I do not disagree with how you handled the play. Are you aware, though unless they have changed its mechanics, Federation allows the umpire to go for help immediately without making a safe or out call first?

ASA, we do it how you did it. When I have a good pregame, we go over this play and how we will do it.

Thanks, Ron

[UmpireErnie]

Originally Posted by ronald

UmpireErnie,

I do not disagree with how you handled the play. Are you aware, though unless they have changed its mechanics, Federation allows the umpire to go for help immediately without making a safe or out call first?

ASA, we do it how you did it. When I have a good pregame, we go over this play and how we will do it.

Thanks, Ron

It seems this is one of those things that has gone back and forth as I have been taught before (and used) the mechanic of immediately during live ball play going to your partner with a question, getting an answer, and making a call.

But we had just had an ASA state umpire school three weeks ago and just went over making a call first always then talking it over during a dead ball.. when the play happened that's what routine fired off in my head.

Your reply made me go back and browse thru the NFHS Umpire's Manuel but I can't find where they address this issue.

[ronald]

Originally Posted by UmpireErnie

It seems this is one of those things that has gone back and forth as I have been taught before (and used) the mechanic of immediately during live ball play going to your partner with a question, getting an answer, and making a call.

But we had just had an ASA state umpire school three weeks ago and just went over making a call first always then talking it over during a dead ball.. when the play happened that's what routine fired off in my head.

Your reply made me go back and browse thru the NFHS Umpire's Manuel but I can't find where they address this issue.

I could not find it either. I thought I had read it in 2008. I guess I confused that with the way the the state interpretar taught us how to do it in Maryland. The UIC for our local association has told us we can go directly to the plate umpire.

What does the college mechanic teach nc2a guys?

thanks, ron

[EsqUmp]

NCAA says to go immediately.

[KJUmp]

Originally Posted by ronald;841698
[B

What does the college mechanic teach nc2a guys?[/B]
thanks, ron

Two years ago (2010) the subject covered almost two pages in the Manual the most salient points to the OP being:

"Umpires are explicitly advised and strongly urged to seek help on the following:
>When they are missing, or could be missing, crucial information needed to make a judgement.
>When they have a doubt.
>When doubt has been created."

"If you are missing a piece of information necessary to making a call, go to your partner, unsolicited, prior to rendering any decision."

"If doubt is created immediately after making your call, then, again unsolicited go to your partner for the information needed."

This season it's down to a paragraph in which the first three sentences read...

"The are times by rule and circumstance that umpires need to ask for help. Going for help does not destroy an umpire's credibility, but allows an umpire to receive a piece of information that was missed when rendering a call. Anytime an umpire seeks help from a partner that partner must have a credible position to give assistance on the call."

[AtlUmpSteve]

Originally Posted by KJUmp

Two years ago (2010) the subject covered almost two pages in the Manual the most salient points to the OP being:

"Umpires are explicitly advised and strongly urged to seek help on the following:
>When they are missing, or could be missing, crucial information needed to make a judgement.
>When they have a doubt.
>When doubt has been created."

"If you are missing a piece of information necessary to making a call, go to your partner, unsolicited, prior to rendering any decision."

"If doubt is created immediately after making your call, then, again unsolicited go to your partner for the information needed."

This season it's down to a paragraph in which the first three sentences read...

"The are times by rule and circumstance that umpires need to ask for help. Going for help does not destroy an umpire's credibility, but allows an umpire to receive a piece of information that was missed when rendering a call. Anytime an umpire seeks help from a partner that partner must have a credible position to give assistance on the call."

And the substantive difference in removing all that prior language? The new NCAA SUP staff that started AFTER the 2010 manual edition DOESN'T agree that the umpire with primary responsibility should turn to an unexpecting umpire with other responsibilities and only secondary (assistance) on this call and should relinquish that call.

So, they didn't reverse the language, they simply eliminated it (leaving one who has read earlier language to wonder what the mechanic is).

From the very top, the preference is for the primary calling umpire to make a call; THEN seek the piece of information that may be missing. The timing is critical in many cases, as subsequent action can be strongly affected by a delayed call resulting from "handing off" your call. Players and teams are used to the coach requesting "go for help" after a play, and they are less affected by that, than a delay in the initial call with subsequent play relying on a first call.

I sat and listened to DV (new staff) and EA (old staff) agree to disagree on this.

[ronald]

Originally Posted by AtlUmpSteve

And the substantive difference in removing all that prior language? The new NCAA SUP staff that started AFTER the 2010 manual edition DOESN'T agree that the umpire with primary responsibility should turn to an unexpecting umpire with other responsibilities and only secondary (assistance) on this call and should relinquish that call. well put.
So, they didn't reverse the language, they simply eliminated it (leaving one who has read earlier language to wonder what the mechanic is).

From the very top, the preference is for the primary calling umpire to make a call; THEN seek the piece of information that may be missing. The timing is critical in many cases, as subsequent action can be strongly affected by a delayed call resulting from "handing off" your call. Players and teams are used to the coach requesting "go for help" after a play, and they are less affected by that, than a delay in the initial call with subsequent play relying on a first call. +1
I sat and listened to DV (new staff) and EA (old staff) agree to disagree on this.

Thanks to the guys who gave info on the ncaa mechanic.

[KJUmp]

Originally Posted by AtlUmpSteve

So, they didn't reverse the language, they simply eliminated it (leaving one who has read earlier language to wonder what the mechanic is).

There have been other instances of this in the Manual, and yes it creates a problem with consistency in mechanics from one season to the next.

I sat and listened to DV (new staff) and EA (old staff) agree to disagree on this.

That must have been a very enlightening and interesting discussion.

Steve, check your PM's.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by UmpireErnie

It seems this is one of those things that has gone back and forth as I have been taught before (and used) the mechanic of immediately during live ball play going to your partner with a question, getting an answer, and making a call.

But we had just had an ASA state umpire school three weeks ago and just went over making a call first always then talking it over during a dead ball.. when the play happened that's what routine fired off in my head.

Your reply made me go back and browse thru the NFHS Umpire's Manuel but I can't find where they address this issue.

It is on the back page of this years NFHS Preseason Guide for Softball. Again, don't like the idea as the required response is "safe" if there is no help from the PU even though that may be the incorrect call.