GT v FSU

[AtlUmpSteve]

Originally Posted by ronald

I did not see the play but I am thinking if U1 was watching the play, he or she might have had a better angle. I am thinking the U3 was straightlined or had a bad angle. Of course U3 must have had doubts as if I was 100% sure I would have a hard time getting together for a conference. Having said that, my perception, from a limited sample, is that in college tha e umpires get together any time a coach disagrees with a call and comes out.

No question, watching the game, U3 was straight lined, and U1 had a better view.

I believe what was meant by the post is that U3 shouldn't be guessing the out not actually seen; default to the "safe", and have THAT call potentially appealed and overturned.

So far as NCAA manual is concerned, the umpires should only get together when the calling umpire agrees that the other umpire may have additional information to add. In general, assuming a smaller and higher level of training than any other group, that should actually happen less. But, we don't actually work for the NCAA until postseason; this is a conference coordinator issue when umpires feel more required than the manual suggests.

That said; my belief is this call should have been "safe, no tag" to begin with. Good reversal by the crew, but never should have been necessary.

[ronald]

thanks Steve.


Are you working the post season?

[AtlUmpSteve]

Originally Posted by ronald

thanks Steve.

Are you working the post season?

Not this year.

At least primarily my fault this time; I neglected to take the test on time. So much going on, I simply forgot.

[azbigdawg]

Originally Posted by AtlUmpSteve

Not this year.

At least primarily my fault this time; I neglected to take the test on time. So much going on, I simply forgot.

another excellent post...other than drinking bad beer, you usually nail it..

[UmpireErnie]

It was U3s call by the book, and if U3 sees the defense reach out to tag the runner and sees no space between the ball and the runner then U3 "saw" an out and makes the call based on that info. U3 may know at the time that the angle is bad and may go ahead and ask for help at the conclusion of the play or the coach may come out and ask U3 to get help based on the fact that U3 had a bad angle on the play.

This is NOT an appeal play.

I had a similar play in a high school game using 2-man mechanics this weekend. R1 at 3B, BU (me) between 2B and 3B to the 3B side of F6. Ground ball to F6. I move as much as possible toward 1B for the call which since F6 is fielding the ball is not to much. F6's throw is a bit wide of 1B and F3 does a great job of catching the ball while falling to her right and stretching a toe out toward 1B.

From my angle I could not see space between the foot and the bag, but I knew F3 was falling not only to the right of 1B but into the infield toward me creating an angle where I could potentially not see the foot come off the bag.

I gave a big sell out call based on the info I had, and then called time. I did not wait for a coach to come ask me to get help, I went to my partner who had the good angle on her coming off. He game me the info I needed and I immedeatly reversed the call. Done this way you avoid the perception that the coach came out and "talked you into it".

I know the age old axiom "never guess an out" but I submit that this is not guessing. You are making a call based on the info you have. This truly looked like from my angle a great play by F3. But I knew I might have been fooled. However, if my partner didn't get a look (might be busy watching a runner touch 3B for example) then we have to go with what I saw.

[EsqUmp]

Originally Posted by UmpireErnie

From my angle I could not see space between the foot and the bag, but I knew F3 was falling not only to the right of 1B but into the infield toward me creating an angle where I could potentially not see the foot come off the bag.

I gave a big sell out call based on the info I had, and then called time. I did not wait for a coach to come ask me to get help, I went to my partner who had the good angle on her coming off. He game me the info I needed and I immedeatly reversed the call. Done this way you avoid the perception that the coach came out and "talked you into it".

I know the age old axiom "never guess an out" but I submit that this is not guessing. You are making a call based on the info you have. This truly looked like from my angle a great play by F3. But I knew I might have been fooled. However, if my partner didn't get a look (might be busy watching a runner touch 3B for example) then we have to go with what I saw.

Why not just go into your partner immediately rather than making a call that you may wind up changing? Just point to your partner and say "Was her foot on the base?" I've seen this done dozens of times and it works a lot better than reversing a call, regardless of who prompts it.

[ronald]

Originally Posted by EsqUmp

Why not just go into your partner immediately rather than making a call that you may wind up changing? Just point to your partner and say "Was her foot on the base?" I've seen this done dozens of times and it works a lot better than reversing a call, regardless of who prompts it.

Just a thought. What hppens if the plate ump takes his eyes off the play at first to see the runner from 3b touch home and the bu says pulled foot? Crew might look a little amateur at that point.

[ronald]

Originally Posted by UmpireErnie

It was U3s call by the book, and if U3 sees the defense reach out to tag the runner and sees no space between the ball and the runner then U3 "saw" an out and makes the call based on that info. U3 may know at the time that the angle is bad and may go ahead and ask for help at the conclusion of the play or the coach may come out and ask U3 to get help based on the fact that U3 had a bad angle on the play.

This is NOT an appeal play.

I had a similar play in a high school game using 2-man mechanics this weekend. R1 at 3B, BU (me) between 2B and 3B to the 3B side of F6. Ground ball to F6. I move as much as possible toward 1B for the call which since F6 is fielding the ball is not to much. F6's throw is a bit wide of 1B and F3 does a great job of catching the ball while falling to her right and stretching a toe out toward 1B.

From my angle I could not see space between the foot and the bag, but I knew F3 was falling not only to the right of 1B but into the infield toward me creating an angle where I could potentially not see the foot come off the bag.

I gave a big sell out call based on the info I had, and then called time. I did not wait for a coach to come ask me to get help, I went to my partner who had the good angle on her coming off. He game me the info I needed and I immedeatly reversed the call. Done this way you avoid the perception that the coach came out and "talked you into it".

I know the age old axiom "never guess an out" but I submit that this is not guessing. You are making a call based on the info you have. This truly looked like from my angle a great play by F3. But I knew I might have been fooled. However, if my partner didn't get a look (might be busy watching a runner touch 3B for example) then we have to go with what I saw.

UmpireErnie,

I do not disagree with how you handled the play. Are you aware, though unless they have changed its mechanics, Federation allows the umpire to go for help immediately without making a safe or out call first?

ASA, we do it how you did it. When I have a good pregame, we go over this play and how we will do it.

Thanks, Ron

[UmpireErnie]

Originally Posted by ronald

UmpireErnie,

I do not disagree with how you handled the play. Are you aware, though unless they have changed its mechanics, Federation allows the umpire to go for help immediately without making a safe or out call first?

ASA, we do it how you did it. When I have a good pregame, we go over this play and how we will do it.

Thanks, Ron

It seems this is one of those things that has gone back and forth as I have been taught before (and used) the mechanic of immediately during live ball play going to your partner with a question, getting an answer, and making a call.

But we had just had an ASA state umpire school three weeks ago and just went over making a call first always then talking it over during a dead ball.. when the play happened that's what routine fired off in my head.

Your reply made me go back and browse thru the NFHS Umpire's Manuel but I can't find where they address this issue.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by UmpireErnie

I gave a big sell out call based on the info I had, and then called time. I did not wait for a coach to come ask me to get help, I went to my partner who had the good angle on her coming off. He game me the info I needed and I immedeatly reversed the call. Done this way you avoid the perception that the coach came out and "talked you into it".

I don't buy your perception belief as there is no conversation from that coach other than requesting you go for help.

I know the age old axiom "never guess an out" but I submit that this is not guessing. You are making a call based on the info you have. This truly looked like from my angle a great play by F3. But I knew I might have been fooled. However, if my partner didn't get a look (might be busy watching a runner touch 3B for example) then we have to go with what I saw.

Couldn't agree more on this. You call what your eyes tell your brain occurred. You do not have the luxury of stopping the play, see if your partner had a view of the play AT THE TIME IT HAPPENED, not when you looked and then decide to make the call or give it up. If you see the play, you call the play. If you don't call the play and your partner did not see the play, you have only one result and that is a safe call even though everyone else saw the ball beat the runner by three strides and F3 was touching the base.

[KJUmp]

Originally Posted by AtlUmpSteve

No question, watching the game, U3 was straight lined, and U1 had a better view.

I believe what was meant by the post is that U3 shouldn't be guessing the out not actually seen; default to the "safe", and have THAT call potentially appealed and overturned.

So far as NCAA manual is concerned, the umpires should only get together when the calling umpire agrees that the other umpire may have additional information to add. In general, assuming a smaller and higher level of training than any other group, that should actually happen less. But, we don't actually work for the NCAA until postseason; this is a conference coordinator issue when umpires feel more required than the manual suggests.

That said; my belief is this call should have been "safe, no tag" to begin with. Good reversal by the crew, but never should have been necessary.

Excellent post Steve, and in the bolded sentence you have hit the nail square on the head.