GT v FSU

[EsqUmp]

NCAA says to go immediately.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by UmpireErnie

It seems this is one of those things that has gone back and forth as I have been taught before (and used) the mechanic of immediately during live ball play going to your partner with a question, getting an answer, and making a call.

But we had just had an ASA state umpire school three weeks ago and just went over making a call first always then talking it over during a dead ball.. when the play happened that's what routine fired off in my head.

Your reply made me go back and browse thru the NFHS Umpire's Manuel but I can't find where they address this issue.

It is on the back page of this years NFHS Preseason Guide for Softball. Again, don't like the idea as the required response is "safe" if there is no help from the PU even though that may be the incorrect call.

[KJUmp]

Originally Posted by ronald;841698
[B

What does the college mechanic teach nc2a guys?[/B]
thanks, ron

Two years ago (2010) the subject covered almost two pages in the Manual the most salient points to the OP being:

"Umpires are explicitly advised and strongly urged to seek help on the following:
>When they are missing, or could be missing, crucial information needed to make a judgement.
>When they have a doubt.
>When doubt has been created."

"If you are missing a piece of information necessary to making a call, go to your partner, unsolicited, prior to rendering any decision."

"If doubt is created immediately after making your call, then, again unsolicited go to your partner for the information needed."

This season it's down to a paragraph in which the first three sentences read...

"The are times by rule and circumstance that umpires need to ask for help. Going for help does not destroy an umpire's credibility, but allows an umpire to receive a piece of information that was missed when rendering a call. Anytime an umpire seeks help from a partner that partner must have a credible position to give assistance on the call."

[rwest]

Originally Posted by EsqUmp

The reality is that everyone will be watching the play at first and no one pays attention to R3 touch home, at least not when there is a potential problem with the play at first. I would also expect that the plate umpire would line himself up properly and would be able to see both.

There are times when a pulled foot at first is not the plate umpires primary responsibility. If you have the winning run at home in the bottom of the 7th of a tie ball game, you better believe the umpire better make sure R1 touches home. Also, the distance of the two bases makes it oftentimes impossible to get a good angle to see both. This is not something you should rely on your peripheral vision to pick up. I prefer the ASA mechanic on this.

[AtlUmpSteve]

Originally Posted by KJUmp

Two years ago (2010) the subject covered almost two pages in the Manual the most salient points to the OP being:

"Umpires are explicitly advised and strongly urged to seek help on the following:
>When they are missing, or could be missing, crucial information needed to make a judgement.
>When they have a doubt.
>When doubt has been created."

"If you are missing a piece of information necessary to making a call, go to your partner, unsolicited, prior to rendering any decision."

"If doubt is created immediately after making your call, then, again unsolicited go to your partner for the information needed."

This season it's down to a paragraph in which the first three sentences read...

"The are times by rule and circumstance that umpires need to ask for help. Going for help does not destroy an umpire's credibility, but allows an umpire to receive a piece of information that was missed when rendering a call. Anytime an umpire seeks help from a partner that partner must have a credible position to give assistance on the call."

And the substantive difference in removing all that prior language? The new NCAA SUP staff that started AFTER the 2010 manual edition DOESN'T agree that the umpire with primary responsibility should turn to an unexpecting umpire with other responsibilities and only secondary (assistance) on this call and should relinquish that call.

So, they didn't reverse the language, they simply eliminated it (leaving one who has read earlier language to wonder what the mechanic is).

From the very top, the preference is for the primary calling umpire to make a call; THEN seek the piece of information that may be missing. The timing is critical in many cases, as subsequent action can be strongly affected by a delayed call resulting from "handing off" your call. Players and teams are used to the coach requesting "go for help" after a play, and they are less affected by that, than a delay in the initial call with subsequent play relying on a first call.

I sat and listened to DV (new staff) and EA (old staff) agree to disagree on this.

[ronald]

Originally Posted by AtlUmpSteve

And the substantive difference in removing all that prior language? The new NCAA SUP staff that started AFTER the 2010 manual edition DOESN'T agree that the umpire with primary responsibility should turn to an unexpecting umpire with other responsibilities and only secondary (assistance) on this call and should relinquish that call. well put.
So, they didn't reverse the language, they simply eliminated it (leaving one who has read earlier language to wonder what the mechanic is).

From the very top, the preference is for the primary calling umpire to make a call; THEN seek the piece of information that may be missing. The timing is critical in many cases, as subsequent action can be strongly affected by a delayed call resulting from "handing off" your call. Players and teams are used to the coach requesting "go for help" after a play, and they are less affected by that, than a delay in the initial call with subsequent play relying on a first call. +1
I sat and listened to DV (new staff) and EA (old staff) agree to disagree on this.

Thanks to the guys who gave info on the ncaa mechanic.

[ronald]

Originally Posted by rwest

There are times when a pulled foot at first is not the plate umpires primary responsibility. If you have the winning run at home in the bottom of the 7th of a tie ball game, you better believe the umpire better make sure R1 touches home. Also, the distance of the two bases makes it oftentimes impossible to get a good angle to see both. This is not something you should rely on your peripheral vision to pick up. I prefer the ASA mechanic on this.

I was not thinking of the exact play but something similar. Well said.

+1

[EsqUmp]

Originally Posted by rwest

There are times when a pulled foot at first is not the plate umpires primary responsibility. If you have the winning run at home in the bottom of the 7th of a tie ball game, you better believe the umpire better make sure R1 touches home. Also, the distance of the two bases makes it oftentimes impossible to get a good angle to see both. This is not something you should rely on your peripheral vision to pick up. I prefer the ASA mechanic on this.

If the plate umpire takes a position on 1st base line extended, how could he not possibly see both a runner stepping on home plate and still have a view of first base? He's looking along the same angle. There's no "peripheral vision" involved.

[KJUmp]

Originally Posted by AtlUmpSteve

So, they didn't reverse the language, they simply eliminated it (leaving one who has read earlier language to wonder what the mechanic is).

There have been other instances of this in the Manual, and yes it creates a problem with consistency in mechanics from one season to the next.

I sat and listened to DV (new staff) and EA (old staff) agree to disagree on this.

That must have been a very enlightening and interesting discussion.

Steve, check your PM's.

[rwest]

Originally Posted by EsqUmp

If the plate umpire takes a position on 1st base line extended, how could he not possibly see both a runner stepping on home plate and still have a view of first base? He's looking along the same angle. There's no "peripheral vision" involved.

One base is 60 feet away. The other is 5 feet away. Even if you get back to the back stop, home plate and first base will not be on the same plane. You will not be able to line the two up. Hence, one base will be more outside your direct line of sight.

[CelticNHBlue]

Originally Posted by rwest

One base is 60 feet away. The other is 5 feet away. Even if you get back to the back stop, home plate and first base will not be on the same plane. You will not be able to line the two up. Hence, one base will be more outside your direct line of sight.

Only because I'm an engineer:

Geometry dictates that three points define a plane, no physics is involved. Therefor the umpire, plate, and 1B are always in the same plane, no matter where you stand. However hp and 1B may not be along your line of sight, as you stated.

I agree, you can not definitively see both if they occur simultaneously, even if you stand first base line extended. Touching hp is the primary call, pulled foot is secondary for the plate umpire.

[rwest]

Originally Posted by CelticNHBlue

Only because I'm an engineer:

Geometry dictates that three points define a plane, no physics is involved. Therefor the umpire, plate, and 1B are always in the same plane, no matter where you stand. However hp and 1B may not be along your line of sight, as you stated.

I agree, you can not definitively see both if they occur simultaneously, even if you stand first base line extended. Touching hp is the primary call, pulled foot is secondary for the plate umpire.

You haven't called on some of the fields I have had to call on. Sometimes home and first are definitely on different planes! LOL!