GT v FSU

[AtlUmpSteve]

Originally Posted by ronald

thanks Steve.

Are you working the post season?

Not this year.

At least primarily my fault this time; I neglected to take the test on time. So much going on, I simply forgot.

[azbigdawg]

Originally Posted by AtlUmpSteve

Not this year.

At least primarily my fault this time; I neglected to take the test on time. So much going on, I simply forgot.

another excellent post...other than drinking bad beer, you usually nail it..

[UmpireErnie]

It was U3s call by the book, and if U3 sees the defense reach out to tag the runner and sees no space between the ball and the runner then U3 "saw" an out and makes the call based on that info. U3 may know at the time that the angle is bad and may go ahead and ask for help at the conclusion of the play or the coach may come out and ask U3 to get help based on the fact that U3 had a bad angle on the play.

This is NOT an appeal play.

I had a similar play in a high school game using 2-man mechanics this weekend. R1 at 3B, BU (me) between 2B and 3B to the 3B side of F6. Ground ball to F6. I move as much as possible toward 1B for the call which since F6 is fielding the ball is not to much. F6's throw is a bit wide of 1B and F3 does a great job of catching the ball while falling to her right and stretching a toe out toward 1B.

From my angle I could not see space between the foot and the bag, but I knew F3 was falling not only to the right of 1B but into the infield toward me creating an angle where I could potentially not see the foot come off the bag.

I gave a big sell out call based on the info I had, and then called time. I did not wait for a coach to come ask me to get help, I went to my partner who had the good angle on her coming off. He game me the info I needed and I immedeatly reversed the call. Done this way you avoid the perception that the coach came out and "talked you into it".

I know the age old axiom "never guess an out" but I submit that this is not guessing. You are making a call based on the info you have. This truly looked like from my angle a great play by F3. But I knew I might have been fooled. However, if my partner didn't get a look (might be busy watching a runner touch 3B for example) then we have to go with what I saw.

[EsqUmp]

Originally Posted by UmpireErnie

From my angle I could not see space between the foot and the bag, but I knew F3 was falling not only to the right of 1B but into the infield toward me creating an angle where I could potentially not see the foot come off the bag.

I gave a big sell out call based on the info I had, and then called time. I did not wait for a coach to come ask me to get help, I went to my partner who had the good angle on her coming off. He game me the info I needed and I immedeatly reversed the call. Done this way you avoid the perception that the coach came out and "talked you into it".

I know the age old axiom "never guess an out" but I submit that this is not guessing. You are making a call based on the info you have. This truly looked like from my angle a great play by F3. But I knew I might have been fooled. However, if my partner didn't get a look (might be busy watching a runner touch 3B for example) then we have to go with what I saw.

Why not just go into your partner immediately rather than making a call that you may wind up changing? Just point to your partner and say "Was her foot on the base?" I've seen this done dozens of times and it works a lot better than reversing a call, regardless of who prompts it.

[ronald]

Originally Posted by EsqUmp

Why not just go into your partner immediately rather than making a call that you may wind up changing? Just point to your partner and say "Was her foot on the base?" I've seen this done dozens of times and it works a lot better than reversing a call, regardless of who prompts it.

Just a thought. What hppens if the plate ump takes his eyes off the play at first to see the runner from 3b touch home and the bu says pulled foot? Crew might look a little amateur at that point.

[EsqUmp]

Originally Posted by ronald

Just a thought. What hppens if the plate ump takes his eyes off the play at first to see the runner from 3b touch home and the bu says pulled foot? Crew might look a little amateur at that point.

I cover this in our pregame. I also expect the plate umpire to pay attention to the actual play that exists, that being the one at first base.

The reality is that everyone will be watching the play at first and no one pays attention to R3 touch home, at least not when there is a potential problem with the play at first. I would also expect that the plate umpire would line himself up properly and would be able to see both.

This is a far better technique than making a call and then having to stop play to talk about it. You may end up having to place runners, you may put other runners in jeopardy, etc. It's just a big, unnecessary mess.

If we can still "go for help" on a check swing when a runner is stealing, I think umpires can walk and chew gum at the same time at be able to see a runner step on a plate and still pay attention to first base. If the umpire can't, they we need to do a better job training them.

[rwest]

Originally Posted by EsqUmp

The reality is that everyone will be watching the play at first and no one pays attention to R3 touch home, at least not when there is a potential problem with the play at first. I would also expect that the plate umpire would line himself up properly and would be able to see both.

There are times when a pulled foot at first is not the plate umpires primary responsibility. If you have the winning run at home in the bottom of the 7th of a tie ball game, you better believe the umpire better make sure R1 touches home. Also, the distance of the two bases makes it oftentimes impossible to get a good angle to see both. This is not something you should rely on your peripheral vision to pick up. I prefer the ASA mechanic on this.

[ronald]

Originally Posted by UmpireErnie

It was U3s call by the book, and if U3 sees the defense reach out to tag the runner and sees no space between the ball and the runner then U3 "saw" an out and makes the call based on that info. U3 may know at the time that the angle is bad and may go ahead and ask for help at the conclusion of the play or the coach may come out and ask U3 to get help based on the fact that U3 had a bad angle on the play.

This is NOT an appeal play.

I had a similar play in a high school game using 2-man mechanics this weekend. R1 at 3B, BU (me) between 2B and 3B to the 3B side of F6. Ground ball to F6. I move as much as possible toward 1B for the call which since F6 is fielding the ball is not to much. F6's throw is a bit wide of 1B and F3 does a great job of catching the ball while falling to her right and stretching a toe out toward 1B.

From my angle I could not see space between the foot and the bag, but I knew F3 was falling not only to the right of 1B but into the infield toward me creating an angle where I could potentially not see the foot come off the bag.

I gave a big sell out call based on the info I had, and then called time. I did not wait for a coach to come ask me to get help, I went to my partner who had the good angle on her coming off. He game me the info I needed and I immedeatly reversed the call. Done this way you avoid the perception that the coach came out and "talked you into it".

I know the age old axiom "never guess an out" but I submit that this is not guessing. You are making a call based on the info you have. This truly looked like from my angle a great play by F3. But I knew I might have been fooled. However, if my partner didn't get a look (might be busy watching a runner touch 3B for example) then we have to go with what I saw.

UmpireErnie,

I do not disagree with how you handled the play. Are you aware, though unless they have changed its mechanics, Federation allows the umpire to go for help immediately without making a safe or out call first?

ASA, we do it how you did it. When I have a good pregame, we go over this play and how we will do it.

Thanks, Ron

[UmpireErnie]

Originally Posted by ronald

UmpireErnie,

I do not disagree with how you handled the play. Are you aware, though unless they have changed its mechanics, Federation allows the umpire to go for help immediately without making a safe or out call first?

ASA, we do it how you did it. When I have a good pregame, we go over this play and how we will do it.

Thanks, Ron

It seems this is one of those things that has gone back and forth as I have been taught before (and used) the mechanic of immediately during live ball play going to your partner with a question, getting an answer, and making a call.

But we had just had an ASA state umpire school three weeks ago and just went over making a call first always then talking it over during a dead ball.. when the play happened that's what routine fired off in my head.

Your reply made me go back and browse thru the NFHS Umpire's Manuel but I can't find where they address this issue.

[ronald]

Originally Posted by UmpireErnie

It seems this is one of those things that has gone back and forth as I have been taught before (and used) the mechanic of immediately during live ball play going to your partner with a question, getting an answer, and making a call.

But we had just had an ASA state umpire school three weeks ago and just went over making a call first always then talking it over during a dead ball.. when the play happened that's what routine fired off in my head.

Your reply made me go back and browse thru the NFHS Umpire's Manuel but I can't find where they address this issue.

I could not find it either. I thought I had read it in 2008. I guess I confused that with the way the the state interpretar taught us how to do it in Maryland. The UIC for our local association has told us we can go directly to the plate umpire.

What does the college mechanic teach nc2a guys?

thanks, ron

[EsqUmp]

NCAA says to go immediately.

[KJUmp]

Originally Posted by ronald;841698
[B

What does the college mechanic teach nc2a guys?[/B]
thanks, ron

Two years ago (2010) the subject covered almost two pages in the Manual the most salient points to the OP being:

"Umpires are explicitly advised and strongly urged to seek help on the following:
>When they are missing, or could be missing, crucial information needed to make a judgement.
>When they have a doubt.
>When doubt has been created."

"If you are missing a piece of information necessary to making a call, go to your partner, unsolicited, prior to rendering any decision."

"If doubt is created immediately after making your call, then, again unsolicited go to your partner for the information needed."

This season it's down to a paragraph in which the first three sentences read...

"The are times by rule and circumstance that umpires need to ask for help. Going for help does not destroy an umpire's credibility, but allows an umpire to receive a piece of information that was missed when rendering a call. Anytime an umpire seeks help from a partner that partner must have a credible position to give assistance on the call."

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by UmpireErnie

It seems this is one of those things that has gone back and forth as I have been taught before (and used) the mechanic of immediately during live ball play going to your partner with a question, getting an answer, and making a call.

But we had just had an ASA state umpire school three weeks ago and just went over making a call first always then talking it over during a dead ball.. when the play happened that's what routine fired off in my head.

Your reply made me go back and browse thru the NFHS Umpire's Manuel but I can't find where they address this issue.

It is on the back page of this years NFHS Preseason Guide for Softball. Again, don't like the idea as the required response is "safe" if there is no help from the PU even though that may be the incorrect call.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by UmpireErnie

I gave a big sell out call based on the info I had, and then called time. I did not wait for a coach to come ask me to get help, I went to my partner who had the good angle on her coming off. He game me the info I needed and I immedeatly reversed the call. Done this way you avoid the perception that the coach came out and "talked you into it".

I don't buy your perception belief as there is no conversation from that coach other than requesting you go for help.

I know the age old axiom "never guess an out" but I submit that this is not guessing. You are making a call based on the info you have. This truly looked like from my angle a great play by F3. But I knew I might have been fooled. However, if my partner didn't get a look (might be busy watching a runner touch 3B for example) then we have to go with what I saw.

Couldn't agree more on this. You call what your eyes tell your brain occurred. You do not have the luxury of stopping the play, see if your partner had a view of the play AT THE TIME IT HAPPENED, not when you looked and then decide to make the call or give it up. If you see the play, you call the play. If you don't call the play and your partner did not see the play, you have only one result and that is a safe call even though everyone else saw the ball beat the runner by three strides and F3 was touching the base.