Calling IP

[CelticNHBlue]

I've had several discussions in the past weeks regarding this issue. There have been some interesting points brought up along the way, both here and in my other travels.

Taking a complete look at the possibilites that can result during a play that starts with an IP, I now wonder why an offensive coach doesn't just send all his runners once s/he recognizes one has been called.

By definition, an IP is a DDB to allow the play to be completed so the offense can select the most advantageous result. The play does not end until the ball is held by the pitcher in the circle and all runners are standing on a base.

Does it seem so outrageous that if you have R1 on first, and an IP that is not hit, to have your runner jog to second and continue to third. The worst that can happen is she gets tagged out and the coach takes the IP option. I can totally see a defense pointing in confusion that 'the runner only gets one base on an IP', 'why is she still advancing'; but doing nothing to stop her.

Anyone disagree with my conclusion? Am I just really late to the table having this sink in now? All this option play discussion from the NCAA rule change has gotten me thinking about these situations in more depth.

[argodad]

Originally Posted by CelticNHBlue

I've had several discussions in the past weeks regarding this issue. There have been some interesting points brought up along the way, both here and in my other travels.

Taking a complete look at the possibilites that can result during a play that starts with an IP, I now wonder why an offensive coach doesn't just send all his runners once s/he recognizes one has been called.

By definition, an IP is a DDB to allow the play to be completed so the offense can select the most advantageous result. The play does not end until the ball is held by the pitcher in the circle and all runners are standing on a base.

Does it seem so outrageous that if you have R1 on first, and an IP that is not hit, to have your runner jog to second and continue to third. The worst that can happen is she gets tagged out and the coach takes the IP option. I can totally see a defense pointing in confusion that 'the runner only gets one base on an IP', 'why is she still advancing'; but doing nothing to stop her.

Anyone disagree with my conclusion? Am I just really late to the table having this sink in now? All this option play discussion from the NCAA rule change has gotten me thinking about these situations in more depth.

I no longer call college ball, but in NFHS the offense doesn't have an option if the IP isn't hit or the batter becomes a BR. Once it isn't hit, dead ball, make the award.

[umpire george]

Originally Posted by argodad

I no longer call college ball, but in NFHS the offense doesn't have an option if the IP isn't hit or the batter becomes a BR. Once it isn't hit, dead ball, make the award.

I'm probably missing something somewhere, but where in the NFHS Rule book does it state the option is removed if the ball isn't hit fair or foul or the batter becomes a base runner?
Just asking, don't mean to get anybody angry.

[marvin]

Originally Posted by umpire george

I'm probably missing something somewhere, but where in the NFHS Rule book does it state the option is removed if the ball isn't hit fair or foul or the batter becomes a base runner?
Just asking, don't mean to get anybody angry.

In NFHS the option does not go away if the ball is not hit by the batter, it exists only IF the ball is hit.

6-2-2 penalty exception:

EXCEPTION: If the pitcher completes the delivery of the ball to the batter and the batter hits the ball fair or foul, or becomes a base runner, the coach of the team at bat shall have the option of the result of the play or the penalty for an illegal pitch. A delayed dead ball will be signaled by the umpire by extending the left arm horizontally.

The quote is from the 2011 rule book as I don't have the 2012 book in pdf form.

The 2011 case book has this play:

6.2.2 SITUATION D: (F.P.) With R1 on third and R2 on first, B3 hits an illegal pitch to deep left-center field. R1 scores, R2 reaches third and B3 stops at first.
RULING: Even though B3 reached first base safely and R1 and R2 advanced at least one base, the coach of the team at bat has the option of the play or the penalty since B3 hit an illegal pitch. (6-2-2 Penalty Exception)

Which shows that the batter reaching base does not negate the option, if the batter reached on a play where the ball was hit.

The play that is put forth as an argument for the offense to always have the option is on a wild pitch/passed ball with runners on second and third. The batting team is down by one run. The catcher retrieves the ball and makes a bad throw allowing both runners to score, putting the team at bat ahead. If the pitch was an illegal pitch only one runner can score in NFHS, since the ball was not hit. The defense in effect benefits from violating a rule.

[EsqUmp]

Originally Posted by argodad

I no longer call college ball, but in NFHS the offense doesn't have an option if the IP isn't hit or the batter becomes a BR. Once it isn't hit, dead ball, make the award.

Not so.

If R2 on 2nd base is the winning run. She is stealing 3rd base. Illegal pitch is thrown and called a ball (out of the zone and not swung at). F2 throws to F5 to retire R2 at 3rd base. F2 throws the ball into the outfield. R2 comes around to score.

The ball is NOT dead when B3 doesn't swing.

The coach can take the result of the play (since not all runners, including the batter, advanced one base) or enforcement of the penalty. I would prefer to score the winning run over getting a ball on the batter and moving R2 to 3rd base.

I would prefer to score R2 on the result of the play.

[MNBlue]

Originally Posted by EsqUmp

Not so.

If R2 on 2nd base is the winning run. She is stealing 3rd base. Illegal pitch is thrown and called a ball (out of the zone and not swung at). F2 throws to F5 to retire R2 at 3rd base. F2 throws the ball into the outfield. R2 comes around to score.

The ball is NOT dead when B3 doesn't swing.

The coach can take the result of the play (since not all runners, including the batter, advanced one base) or enforcement of the penalty. I would prefer to score the winning run over getting a ball on the batter and moving R2 to 3rd base.

I would prefer to score R2 on the result of the play.

I believe that is an NCAA ruling. In NFHS, the ball has to be hit in order to give the coach an option.

Marvin quoted the applicable rule:

NFHS 6-1-1

...

PENALTY: (Art. 1) An illegal pitch shall be declared immediately by the umpire (delayed dead-ball signal). The batter is awarded a ball and base runners are awarded one base without liability to be put out.

EXCEPTION: When the pitcher completes the delivery of the ball to the batter and the batter hits the ball fair or foul, or becomes a base runner, the coach of the team at bat shall have the option of the result of the play or the penalty for an illegal pitch.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by EsqUmp

Not so.

If R2 on 2nd base is the winning run. She is stealing 3rd base. Illegal pitch is thrown and called a ball (out of the zone and not swung at).

DEAD BALL!!!

F2 throws to F5 to retire R2 at 3rd base. F2 throws the ball into the outfield. R2 comes around to score.

None of this matters, ball is dead.

The ball is NOT dead when B3 doesn't swing.

Except for that pesky rule that says it is.

[x-tremeump]

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

DEAD BALL!!! None of this matters, ball is dead.

Except for that pesky rule that says it is.

Hey Mike,

I am starting to feel an Umpire Bond here... IP is DD, OC takes play or penalty ?

Why is the ball Dead in ASA ?

[EsqUmp]

Originally Posted by xtreamump

Hey Mike,

Why is the ball Dead in ASA ?

IT'S NOT DEAD, as stated by Mike. It's not dead in ASA. It's not dead in NCAA. I must really be missing something here (maybe I am).

Illegal Pitch Effect: "If the batter hits the ball and reaches first base safely, and if all other runners have advanced at least one base on the batted ball, the illegal pitch is nullified." "Otherwise the manager has the option to take the result of the play or the illegal pitch is enforced by awarding a ball to the batter and advance all runners one base."

The play must be completed before the umpire calls "time" to address enforcement of an illegal pitch.

In this case, the batter did not safely reach first base. Therefore, the coach has an option to take the result of the play or enforcement of the illegal pitch (ball on batter and all runners get a base).

Additionally, "An umpire may not call time while any play is in progress" (except injured player needing immediate attention).

WHY IS THE BALL DEAD WHEN THE PLAY ISN'T OVER?

[x-tremeump]

Originally Posted by EsqUmp

IT'S NOT DEAD, as stated by Mike. It's not dead in ASA. It's not dead in NCAA. I must really be missing something here (maybe I am).

Illegal Pitch Effect: "If the batter hits the ball and reaches first base safely, and if all other runners have advanced at least one base on the batted ball, the illegal pitch is nullified." "Otherwise the manager has the option to take the result of the play or the illegal pitch is enforced by awarding a ball to the batter and advance all runners one base."

The play must be completed before the umpire calls "time" to address enforcement of an illegal pitch.

In this case, the batter did not safely reach first base. Therefore, the coach has an option to take the result of the play or enforcement of the illegal pitch (ball on batter and all runners get a base).

Additionally, "An umpire may not call time while any play is in progress" (except injured player needing immediate attention).

WHY IS THE BALL DEAD WHEN THE PLAY ISN'T OVER?

Come on Mike tell us something that we don't know..

[BretMan]

Originally Posted by EsqUmp

I must really be missing something here.

Only that NFHS and ASA enforce/penalize illegal pitches differently.

My advice would be to take a little more time actually reading what you're responding to before telling others they don't know what they're talking about. Maybe you could use some of the time wasted on berating people who don't stick to a narrowly defined course of discussion that you deem suitable or thinking up catchy quips about "clones".

[x-tremeump]

Originally Posted by EsqUmp

IT'S NOT DEAD, as stated by Mike. It's not dead in ASA. It's not dead in NCAA. I must really be missing something here (maybe I am).

Illegal Pitch Effect: "If the batter hits the ball and reaches first base safely, and if all other runners have advanced at least one base on the batted ball, the illegal pitch is nullified." "Otherwise the manager has the option to take the result of the play or the illegal pitch is enforced by awarding a ball to the batter and advance all runners one base."

The play must be completed before the umpire calls "time" to address enforcement of an illegal pitch.

In this case, the batter did not safely reach first base. Therefore, the coach has an option to take the result of the play or enforcement of the illegal pitch (ball on batter and all runners get a base).

Additionally, "An umpire may not call time while any play is in progress" (except injured player needing immediate attention).

WHY IS THE BALL DEAD WHEN THE PLAY ISN'T OVER?

The code here that the nice gentleman is referencing is NCAA/ASA, not Federation. I do not follow NCAA so I have no coment on that .

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by argodad

In NFHS the offense doesn't have an option if the IP isn't hit or the batter becomes a BR. Once it isn't hit, dead ball, make the award.

Originally Posted by EsqUmp

Not so.

The ball is NOT dead when B3 doesn't swing.

Originally Posted by xtreamump

Why is the ball Dead in ASA ?

If you guys can't make note of the rule-set you are discussing, and/or keep them straight, you're going to have a lot of problems here.

[x-tremeump]

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

If you guys can't make note of the rule-set you are discussing, and/or keep them straight, you're going to have a lot of problems here.

If you experienced Forum users would get threw a thread without killing the issue. It would not get hostile where you threaten people. There is no problem that you or any other clone can do that will keep myself or ESQUMP off of "YOUR" Forum.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by xtreamump

If you experienced Forum users would get threw a thread without killing the issue. It would not get hostile where you threaten people. There is no problem that you or any other clone can do that will keep myself or ESQUMP off of "YOUR" Forum.

Where did I get hostile or threaten you? Good grief you're a mess.

Arbo clearly asked a question about NFHS rules. Esq told him he was wrong. I replied that no, Esq was wrong. Then you get snarky with me - first with "Why is this a dead ball in ASA?" - something I clearly did NOT say, and then with "Come on Mike, tell us something we don't know. Your buddy or clone, whichever the case, said, it's NOT dead as stated by ME, in ASA or NCAA - again, we were talking about NFHS.

And I (???!?!!???) am the one being hostile or threatening? Seriously?

And me clarifying for you in nice big letters where your confusion / error was gets greeted by this accusatory crap? The appropriate response would have been, "Crap, you're right, I totally misread that. Sorry". Not the garbage you spewed.

Thanks for your mention of Katy, my reply, with exactly the same tone, is that I lived in NY for 8 months. There were so many nice people there too.