Co-ed Missed Base

[NCASAUmp]

Originally Posted by Tru_in_Blu

I'll add that while R2 may have been "forced to advance", I don't think this is a force out.

Care to explain why?

[Tru_in_Blu]

Originally Posted by NCASAUmp

Care to explain why?

Night At The Museum: Battle for the Smithsonian

THINKING.... THINKING..... THINKING.....

I'm thinking back to a case play or perhaps a discussion on this board. Game is FP in this scenario. W/ bases loaded and 2 outs, batter draws a walk. R1 casually walks toward home. R2 agressively takes third and over-runs. F2 throws to F5 who tags R2 for the third out before R1 touches home.

In this case I believe the run still counted.

[NCASAUmp]

Originally Posted by Tru_in_Blu

Night At The Museum: Battle for the Smithsonian

THINKING.... THINKING..... THINKING.....

I'm thinking back to a case play or perhaps a discussion on this board. Game is FP in this scenario. W/ bases loaded and 2 outs, batter draws a walk. R1 casually walks toward home. R2 agressively takes third and over-runs. F2 throws to F5 who tags R2 for the third out before R1 touches home.

In this case I believe the run still counted.

But in your sitch, the runner HAD reached the base to which they were forced. Very different from the OP.

[MD Longhorn]

Score the run. An award beyond 1st to the BR (2nd base in this case) does not create a force.

Imagine the simpler situation, R1 and R2 on 3rd and 2nd, 2 outs. Grounder to third who incidentally touches third before throwing, and throws the ball into the dugout. BR is awarded 2nd - R2 is not suddenly forced to third. Or additionally, should R2 not ever advance to 3rd, but run off the field with the apparent win, you do not have an out here.

[NCASAUmp]

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

Score the run. An award beyond 1st to the BR (2nd base in this case) does not create a force.

Imagine the simpler situation, R1 and R2 on 3rd and 2nd, 2 outs. Grounder to third who incidentally touches third before throwing, and throws the ball into the dugout. BR is awarded 2nd - R2 is not suddenly forced to third. Or additionally, should R2 not ever advance to 3rd, but run off the field with the apparent win, you do not have an out here.

But that's just it. R2 is forced to advance because the batter became a batter-runner. R2 no longer has the right to occupy his base because of this, and therefore, I believe this is a force out.

[AtlUmpSteve]

Originally Posted by NCASAUmp

But that's just it. R2 is forced to advance because the batter became a batter-runner. R2 no longer has the right to occupy his base because of this, and therefore, I believe this is a force out.

Think about what you just said, I see it as the key to this situation.

The batter becoming a batter-runner works for one base with me. After passing first, is that the batter becoming a batter-runner, or isn't that individual now a runner?

Bottom line to me, no such thing as a two base force out. Required to advance because the batter got a two base award is not a force out in my book. Timing play.

[NCASAUmp]

Originally Posted by AtlUmpSteve

Think about what you just said, I see it as the key to this situation.

The batter becoming a batter-runner works for one base with me. After passing first, is that the batter becoming a batter-runner, or isn't that individual now a runner?

Bottom line to me, no such thing as a two base force out. Required to advance because the batter got a two base award is not a force out in my book. Timing play.

I understand, and I'm focusing on 8-5-A:

When forced to vacate a base because the batter was awarded a base on balls.

R2 is forced to vacate his/her base. Their word.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by NCASAUmp

But that's just it. R2 is forced to advance because the batter became a batter-runner. R2 no longer has the right to occupy his base because of this, and therefore, I believe this is a force out.

I don't buy it, but let me ask you this.

Say BR simply refuses to go to 2nd, or leaves the field of play after advancing to 1st. Would we treat the out at 2nd as a force? Of course not.

More food for thought. A ground rule double is also a 2-base award. A runner from 2nd would similarly be "forced" to vacate 2nd base. However, if you ruled such a player missing 3rd base on his way home to be a "force out", you'd be laughed out of the locker room. So why is THIS 2-base award different from THAT 2-base award?

Answer ... it's not.

[NCASAUmp]

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

I don't buy it, but let me ask you this.

Say BR simply refuses to go to 2nd, or leaves the field of play after advancing to 1st. Would we treat the out at 2nd as a force? Of course not.

More food for thought. A ground rule double is also a 2-base award. A runner from 2nd would similarly be "forced" to vacate 2nd base. However, if you ruled such a player missing 3rd base on his way home to be a "force out", you'd be laughed out of the locker room. So why is THIS 2-base award different from THAT 2-base award?

Answer ... it's not.

The answer is that they are, by their very nature, very different.

On a two base award (or ground rule double), the award is made to every runner, including the batter-runner. In this kind of an award, if there are two runners who would be awarded the same base, the bases awarded would be first governed by the lead runner (8-3-B and 8-3-E).

In the OP, however, the base award only applies to the batter-runner, and the positions of all other runners are governed by the batter-runner's awarded base. The other runners are not "awarded" bases, they are simply allowed to advance without liability to be put out when they are forced to advance.

That, to me, is a big difference.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

I don't buy it, but let me ask you this.

Say BR simply refuses to go to 2nd, or leaves the field of play after advancing to 1st. Would we treat the out at 2nd as a force? Of course not.

No, because it is a dead ball.

More food for thought. A ground rule double is also a 2-base award. A runner from 2nd would similarly be "forced" to vacate 2nd base. However, if you ruled such a player missing 3rd base on his way home to be a "force out", you'd be laughed out of the locker room. So why is THIS 2-base award different from THAT 2-base award?

Answer ... it's not.

Yeah, it is because, as noted, all runners are awarded bases on a GRD or any ball which goes out of play. Only the batter is awarded base(s) on a walk.

Look, no one is arguing this isn't strange or even arguable, but as the rules read, it is what it is

[NCASAUmp]

Reported.