For what it's worth

[greymule]

I like it better when the hand up means time out and the pitcher risks a quick pitch if she delivers the ball. Even slow pitch used to be that way, but today we see umps (and I've done it, too) with the hand up and then the go signal for every pitch, as if it's mandatory or something.

In my experience, many SP batters get in the box and say, "Time, please, until I say I'm ready." So I put my hand up. They dig a little dirt, get comfortable, raise the bat, look out to the pitcher, and then say, "OK." Then I take my hand down. The batters are usually polite about it and are not trying to delay the game. Of course, in SP the ball is dead anyway, so we don't have to worry about runners. But in FP, I can see where some tough calls could arise.

Perhaps this is an issue today because pitchers (both SP and FP) simply don't know to give the batter a little time to get set.

[ronald]

BR hits a ball off the LF fence, misses 1B, touches and rounds 2B. Then BR sees F7 firing the ball toward 3B, so BR stops 20 feet off 2B. The ball sails into DBT. BR starts for 3B, so we make the award: home.

That is the same play we received at a DCASA clinic concerning awarding of bases and retouching. However there was no talk about what direction the runner is going or if he/she makes a move one way or another. There was no mention of not being able to get 1 inch from the next awarded base (3rd in our example) and returning to touch 1st base.

I'll bring it up at our next GWASA meeting with one of the members who attended the UIC meeting in Oklahoma to get their understanding and will try to get hold of Judy Cole who went over this play in the DCASA clinic.

While I'm doing that, can someone venture a reason as to why when the ball is dead we would not let them start one way, realize they need to go back and retouch and then let the runner do it?


[Edited by ronald on Mar 18th, 2003 at 11:04 PM]

[greymule]

Please let us know what you find out. I think that the runner, no matter how far past the missed base at the time of the award, should be allowed to return until he touches the next base from where he was at the time of the award.

Concerning the USC, this is from the NJ UIC to me:

#94 Dead ball immediately, eject the batter and bring the runner from third back. Unfortunately this should have been listed as one of the rule clarification[s] (highlighted in the book) and sent out with Merle's comments on the rules. It isn't a new rule[,] just clarification on what is already in the book. We're not going to allow someone to gain when they commit an unsportsmanlike act. If we didn't bring the runner (all runners return) back and allowed the run to score (could be a game ending run)[,] someone could commit an unsportsmanlike act and not be penalized.

It seems to me that this is a new rule, not a clarification. Nowhere in the rule book or the case book does it say that a runner is out for USC, except for crashing a fielder who has the ball. This leaves open, however, whether the USC is penalized from the point of the infraction or the start of the play (TOP). What if a runner touches home and then deliberately crashes the catcher? What if, with a runner on 3B, a batter hits a triple and throws an elbow at F5? Does the run score in these cases, or do we revert to TOP?

I have questions in on those matters.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally posted by ronald

BR hits a ball off the LF fence, misses 1B, touches and rounds 2B. Then BR sees F7 firing the ball toward 3B, so BR stops 20 feet off 2B. The ball sails into DBT. BR starts for 3B, so we make the award: home.

That is the same play we received at a DCASA clinic concerning awarding of bases and retouching. However there was no talk about what direction the runner is going or if he/she makes a move one way or another. There was no mention of not being able to get 1 inch from the next awarded base (3rd in our example) and returning to touch 1st base.

I'll bring it up at our next GWASA meeting with one of the members who attended the UIC meeting in Oklahoma to get their understanding and will try to get hold of Judy Cole who went over this play in the DCASA clinic.

While I'm doing that, can someone venture a reason as to why when the ball is dead we would not let them start one way, realize they need to go back and retouch and then let the runner do it?


[Edited by ronald on Mar 18th, 2003 at 11:04 PM]

The direction IS irrelevant. In the case above, once the ball is ruled dead, the umpire should hesitate and allow the runner to do what they want. Remember, during a dead ball period, the runner must be permitted complete their task prior to any further action.

Once the umpire is satisfied the runner is satisfied that they are where they want to be, then you announce the award. Once the award is announced and the runner TOUCHES or passes an awarded base, they may not go back an retouch any base missed or left too soon. It doesn't make a difference if the runner is 65' or 1" away from that bag.

Following is the reason offered by Bernie Profato for the rule change:

"To prevent the possibility that once a base runner advances, they may not return to any base they've gon beyond on the award, This would permit the defensive team to make any appeal as soon as the base runner advanced to or past the next base."

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally posted by greymule
Please let us know what you find out. I think that the runner, no matter how far past the missed base at the time of the award, should be allowed to return until he touches the next base from where he was at the time of the award.

Concerning the USC, this is from the NJ UIC to me:

#94 Dead ball immediately, eject the batter and bring the runner from third back. Unfortunately this should have been listed as one of the rule clarification[s] (highlighted in the book) and sent out with Merle's comments on the rules. It isn't a new rule[,] just clarification on what is already in the book. We're not going to allow someone to gain when they commit an unsportsmanlike act. If we didn't bring the runner (all runners return) back and allowed the run to score (could be a game ending run)[,] someone could commit an unsportsmanlike act and not be penalized.

It seems to me that this is a new rule, not a clarification. Nowhere in the rule book or the case book does it say that a runner is out for USC, except for crashing a fielder who has the ball. This leaves open, however, whether the USC is penalized from the point of the infraction or the start of the play (TOP). What if a runner touches home and then deliberately crashes the catcher? What if, with a runner on 3B, a batter hits a triple and throws an elbow at F5? Does the run score in these cases, or do we revert to TOP?

I have questions in on those matters.

Actually, it was proposed as a rule change, but for some reason didn't get through the general body of the National Council.

You are correct, the "clarification" does not have the support of the rules as presently written.

I was told by my regional UIC that the purpose was to not allow any runs to score on such a play. I was also told to use the casebook play as a recitation if questioned and that if a protest went higher than my position, I would be backed up by the NUS. Therefore, if no runs are to score, I take the runners back to TOP.

[greymule]

Glad to have an answer on the USC question.

Now: BR hits a bases-loaded smash off the fence. Three runs score, and then BR crashes the catcher. Not just a routine crash where he's out but not ejected, but a flagrant, USC crash that warrants ejection. BR is out and ejected and the other three runners go back. If BR was the third out, no runs score. Is that right?

[Edited by greymule on Mar 19th, 2003 at 07:23 AM]

[ronald]

Mike,

Tell me if something is wrong with this ruling or act.

R1 leaves 1st too soon on a fly ball and has passed 2nd when F7 throws a ball that goes out of play. When the ball becomes dead, the PU immediately rules dead ball and with no hesitation says runner is awarded home. Now when the runner is 1 inch from touching 3rd base, which is the next awarded base, may he go back to retouch 1st. It seems that some (unless I missed something) have the sense that you can not. I say that is humbug but what do I know!!!

Thanks

[Dakota]

Just my humble little opinion, but we have lived with the rules as written for lo these many years, and trying to push through this rule change as a clarification is leaving too many holes in the scenarios.

Even if the rule change was not passed due to a snafu at the national convention, what's the harm in living with the rule as written for one more year?

Fix it next year with a well thought out, well written rule.

Well, at least reasonably thought through. Well written? That might be asking too much!

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally posted by Dakota
Just my humble little opinion, but we have lived with the rules as written for lo these many years, and trying to push through this rule change as a clarification is leaving too many holes in the scenarios.

Even if the rule change was not passed due to a snafu at the national convention, what's the harm in living with the rule as written for one more year?

Fix it next year with a well thought out, well written rule.

Well, at least reasonably thought through. Well written? That might be asking too much!

Tom,

I agree wholeheartedly. However, my boss gave me a certain direction and it is my job to follow that direction and rule accordingly, not just ignore what I've been told. Just passing along the info I have available.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally posted by ronald
Mike,

Tell me if something is wrong with this ruling or act.

R1 leaves 1st too soon on a fly ball and has passed 2nd when F7 throws a ball that goes out of play. When the ball becomes dead, the PU immediately rules dead ball and with no hesitation says runner is awarded home. Now when the runner is 1 inch from touching 3rd base, which is the next awarded base, may he go back to retouch 1st. It seems that some (unless I missed something) have the sense that you can not. I say that is humbug but what do I know!!!

Thanks

The "next base" would be the next base in the proper progression as an advancing runner would touch them. In other words, REGARDLESS OF ANY DISTANCE, if the runner was between 2B & 3B when the umpire made the award, the next base would be 3B. Until the moment comes that the runner touches or physically passes 3B, s/he may return and touch any base missed or left too soon.

PLEASE NOTE: Once the runner has touched that "next base", it is not your job to stop them from returning to touch any base missed or left too soon as this is an APPEAL play. If you do that, you have possibly coached the defense.

If they retreat after not being permitted, you let them do whatever they damn well please. However, if the defense appeals at ANY point after that next base was touched and prior to the next pitch, legal or illegal or all that stuff at the end of an inning or game, the umpire is to ignore any return be the runner when not permitted and rule on the appeal.

[greymule]

Unless my memory has failed, it wasn't long ago (2001, I think) that ASA and Fed had the same rule: when the ball went into DBT, a runner who was on or beyond a base missed or left too soon could not return to correct the error (with an exception for balls deliberately thrown away).

Then ASA changed their rule so that a runner could return from no matter where he was when the ball went into DBT. However, they didn't take into account that runners might advance a base or more after the award and then try to retouch. They didn't want somebody taking his award and then, when the coach says, "Jimmy, appeal 1B," start returning to correct his error. This year, they decided to put some limitations on the runner, but they worded the rule badly and didn't seem to consider all the possibilities.

I'm still not sure at exactly what point the runner loses his right to return. Certainly one point is when he advances to the next base after we've made the award.

But what if the play does not involve that type of advance:

Abel hits a dribbler in front of the plate. F2 fields it and throws the ball wild over F3. As the ball rolls down the line into foul territory, Abel misses 1B. Abel rounds 2B, and the ball then goes out of play. We say, "Dead ball." Abel goes back to 2B and stands there. We award 2B. Can Abel now go back to touch 1B? If not, is it because he stopped and we have decided the play is over? In the other play, where the runner around 2B is awarded home, starts toward 3B, and then returns at the coach's direction to touch 1B, is he allowed to return because he never stopping moving enough to end the play?

[Edited by greymule on Mar 19th, 2003 at 12:11 PM]

[ronald]

Thanks Mike.

I thought it was that way but I got the sense that others are getting a different understanding from what I am reading of their posts.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally posted by greymule


But what if the play does not involve that type of advance:

Abel hits a dribbler in front of the plate. F2 fields it and throws the ball wild over F3. As the ball rolls down the line into foul territory, Abel misses 1B. Abel rounds 2B, and the ball then goes out of play. We say, "Dead ball." Abel goes back to 2B and stands there. We award 2B. Can Abel now go back to touch 1B? If not, is it because he stopped and we have decided the play is over? In the other play, where the runner around 2B is awarded home, starts toward 3B, and then returns at the coach's direction to touch 1B, is he allowed to return because he never stopping moving enough to end the play?

[Edited by greymule on Mar 19th, 2003 at 12:11 PM]

When the ball is ruled dead, the umpire hesitates to see if the runner is going to react and retouch the missed base or base left too soon. If the coach is in the process of telling him/her to return, you are also going to allow that as long as SOMETHING in that fashion is occuring prior to you judging all action is obviously over.

At that point, the umpire announces the award. The "next base" is the next base touched when not returning to retouch any base. If a runner is standing on an awarded base AFTER the award is announced, they have obviously fulfilled that part of the rule which prohibits a runner from legally returning to retouch any base. After this base is touched or passed, any return by the runner is NOT valid and to be ignored by the umpire when ruling on a possible appeal.

The next question will be: But the book says that if the runner advances "to and passes", not touch. That comment would be correct. However, if the runner touches the "next base" and stands there, just how long are you going to wait until you move on with the ball game? If the defense then appeals, if you are going to support this argument, then you must let the runner return and retouch the questioned base.

[greymule]

Thanks, everybody. I finally have it straight. I think I can rule on whatever happens.

ASA should write its rules more carefully. They should also think about the extended ramifications a new rule can have. The new rule about calling a player out for throwing a bat is a case in point.