For what it's worth

greymule · #1 (**permalink**) Sun Mar 16, 2003, 08:22pm

We've been discussing several plays that I thought I finally had straight but, after attending the New Jersey UIC meeting today, I can see that I was wrong.

First, I tried to get some clarification on question #94 (batter throws bat and is called out). As soon as I mentioned the test, they said, "Question 94, right? We have something on that and will e-mail it to you." So I'll post whatever they send me.

We have been having a related discussion about whether a player can be ejected and called out for USC, so I gave the example of a runner who deliberately crashes a catcher who is in the way but not in possession of the ball. They said that the runner would indeed be called out. That was surprising to me, but they claimed it was a form of interference. I gave the play about the game-winning home run where the batter punches F3 on the way around, and they said allow the home run and then report the incident. At least until I get the e-mail, I'm confused.

I also asked about the change in 8-5-G concerning returning to touch a base after an award is made. They claim that if a runner misses a base and passes the next base, and then the ball goes into DBT, we say simply, "Dead ball." Then we wait a few seconds to see which way the runner goes. If he starts to return to touch the missed/left base, then we announce the award and let him return. If he starts to advance, we announce the award and, whether or not he returns to retouch, we uphold an appeal. I had thought that he forfeited his right to return only when he touched the next base after we made the award. They claimed they got their info directly from Merle Butler. (They did not say what to do if the runner just stands still and looks at you.)

On another matter, they say that the "do not pitch" sign does not mean time out in ASA (or OBR, but it does in Fed).

Can anyone add to or clarify any of this?

WestMichiganBlue · #2 (**permalink**) Sun Mar 16, 2003, 10:07pm

On another matter, they say that the "do not pitch" sign does not mean time out in ASA (or OBR, but it does in Fed).
I can not speak for ASA, but I can respond to this. That is not true. In FED it is called "Holding up play" (do not pitch) which is different from "Suspension of play" (time-out).

"example of a runner who deliberately crashes a catcher who is in the way but not in possession of the ball. They said that the runner would indeed be called out. That was surprising to me, but they claimed it was a form of interference."

Interference? I suppose if the ball is on the way and you knock the catcher out of the play; and the ball get by and other runners then advance another base, maybe you can call interference. But the catcher did not belong there in the first place so why are we rewarding her with an out?

I've got obstruction; award the run, then eject the runner.
WMB

greymule · #3 (**permalink**) Sun Mar 16, 2003, 10:59pm

Yes, I would score the run but eject the runner, too.

The information I've received at these kind of meetings has at times been totally erroneous, and I suspect this may be another example. I also don't see how they could say eject and out for the crash of a catcher without the ball and then turn around and say count the home run when a player throws a punch. I always leave these rules meetings quite frustrated.

I'm also interested in knowing that hand up in Fed is not time out.

WestMichiganBlue · #4 (**permalink**) Sun Mar 16, 2003, 11:48pm

Fed Umpire Manual pg 37, section on Time out - Suspension of Play. I am not going to type it all here, but it is very obvious that "holding up" is NOT Time Out.
WMB

whiskers_ump · #5 (**permalink**) Mon Mar 17, 2003, 06:52am

WMB nailed it on the head.

One hand up in FED is to indicate to the pitcher not to start to pitch,
Both hands extended high above the head with a verbal call. As opposed
to the holding-up play, the TIME-OUT call/signal should be forceful, distinct
and very apparent to the fact that play has been suspended. A
distinct PLAY BALL should follow TIME-OUT when play is to resume.

glen

Tap · #6 (**permalink**) Mon Mar 17, 2003, 07:01am

Quote:

We have been having a related discussion about whether a player can be ejected and called out for USC, so I gave the example of a runner who deliberately crashes a catcher who is in the way but not in possession of the ball. They said that the runner would indeed be called out. That was surprising to me, but they claimed it was a form of interference. I gave the play about the game-winning home run where the batter punches F3 on the way around, and they said allow the home run and then report the incident. At least until I get the e-mail, I'm confused.

The interpretation from ASA is that the USC supersedes the obstruction, as it's a more serious offense -- "flagrant misconduct" according to Case Book Play 10.8-1. So, if the USC occurs before the runner scoring then the runner is out, and of course ejected, and a dead ball is called. The CB cites Rules 10-8A, 10-1J[3], 10-1K. My understanding is that the only way the run would score is if the USC occurred after the runner touched the plate, then we would have a run, an ejection, and a dead ball.

[Edited by Tap on Mar 17th, 2003 at 06:07 AM]

IRISHMAFIA · #7 (**permalink**) Mon Mar 17, 2003, 07:31am

Quote:

Originally posted by greymule
Yes, I would score the run but eject the runner, too.

The information I've received at these kind of meetings has at times been totally erroneous, and I suspect this may be another example. I also don't see how they could say eject and out for the crash of a catcher without the ball and then turn around and say count the home run when a player throws a punch. I always leave these rules meetings quite frustrated.

I'm also interested in knowing that hand up in Fed is not time out.

I agree and that was my answer under the rules. However, the rule was "supposedly" rewritten. Apparently, it has never made it to the book. This has already been brought to the attention of the National Umpire Staff. I was told to use CB 10.8-1 as a reference when making that ruling. I don't agree with it, but mine is not to reason why.

IRISHMAFIA · #8 (**permalink**) Mon Mar 17, 2003, 07:40am

Originally posted by greymule
We've been discussing several plays that I thought I finally had straight but, after attending the New Jersey UIC meeting today, I can see that I was wrong.

I also asked about the change in 8-5-G concerning returning to touch a base after an award is made. They claim that if a runner misses a base and passes the next base, and then the ball goes into DBT, we say simply, "Dead ball." Then we wait a few seconds to see which way the runner goes. If he starts to return to touch the missed/left base, then we announce the award and let him return. If he starts to advance, we announce the award and, whether or not he returns to retouch, we uphold an appeal. I had thought that he forfeited his right to return only when he touched the next base after we made the award. They claimed they got their info directly from Merle Butler. (They did not say what to do if the runner just stands still and looks at you.)

Just like a no tag/no touch at the plate, the umpire should hesitate to see any player reaction just that this is during a dead ball period. If there is an indication the runner will return, you allow the return and then announce the award. If the runner seems satisfied where they are or begins to advance (assuming the award), announce the award. Once the award is announced and the runner touches the next base, that runner has now forfeited their right to return and retouch any base left too soon or missed.

On another matter, they say that the "do not pitch" sign does not mean time out in ASA (or OBR, but it does in Fed).

Can anyone add to or clarify any of this?

If you check ASA 10.8, you will see the desciptions of when an umpire may suspend play. Many of them are quite similar to those for which an umpire will "hold up play".

CecilOne · #9 (**permalink**) Mon Mar 17, 2003, 08:25am

Quote:

Originally posted by WestMichiganBlue
Interference? I suppose if the ball is on the way and you knock the catcher out of the play; and the ball get by and other runners then advance another base, maybe you can call interference. But the catcher did not belong there in the first place so why are we rewarding her with an out?

I've got obstruction; award the run, then eject the runner.
WMB

It is penalizing the runner, not rewarding the catcher.
If the catcher was truly guilty of obstruction (impeding the runner), then that's what it is, up to the point when the runner deliberately or flagrantly crashes the catcher (or any fielder) and then it's interference and USC.

greymule · #10 (**permalink**) Mon Mar 17, 2003, 01:56pm

Once the award is announced and the runner touches the next base, that runner has now forfeited their right to return and retouch any base left too soon or missed.

This of course is true, but the message I got from the meeting was that the runner was restricted even further. They said that if, after we have waited and watched and made the award, the runner has not begun to return and is on or beyond the first base after the one missed or left too soon, he cannot then return legally. Apparently initiating a return is the key.

Let's get the obvious play out of the way first: Ground ball to F6, who throws the ball into DBT but BR misses 1B. We award 2B. If BR proceeds to touch 2B, he cannot return to 1B. Fine.

But then there's the play where the runner is one base (or even two bases) past the one missed/left too soon when the ball goes into DBT:

BR hits a ball off the LF fence, misses 1B, touches and rounds 2B. Then BR sees F7 firing the ball toward 3B, so BR stops 20 feet off 2B. The ball sails into DBT. BR starts for 3B, so we make the award: home. As BR is approching 3B, the coach says, "Go back and touch 1B." The message I got was that since, at the time of the award, BR was on or beyond the first base of the award (2B) and had not initiated a return, he could not legally return to touch 1B. I thought he could still return until the moment he touched 3B. Now maybe I'm wrong, but I'd like to know for sure one way or the other. They also said that once a runner crosses the plate, he cannot return, even if 3B was the base he missed or left too soon.

Does anyone know for certain what the correct ruling is?

IRISHMAFIA · #11 (**permalink**) Mon Mar 17, 2003, 08:33pm

Quote:

Originally posted by greymule
Once the award is announced and the runner touches the next base, that runner has now forfeited their right to return and retouch any base left too soon or missed.

This of course is true, but the message I got from the meeting was that the runner was restricted even further. They said that if, after we have waited and watched and made the award, the runner has not begun to return and is on or beyond the first base after the one missed or left too soon, he cannot then return legally. Apparently initiating a return is the key.

Does anyone know for certain what the correct ruling is?

Well, I was in the room when Merle Butler explained this one and Emily Alexander, and if I recall properly, Debbi Lauderback specifically asked about this and what it came down to was the base to be considered was the first one touched after the award. However, I can see where you can sell the other.

David Van Milligen · #12 (**permalink**) Tue Mar 18, 2003, 11:22am

Quote:

Originally posted by WestMichiganBlue
Fed Umpire Manual pg 37, section on Time out - Suspension of Play. I am not going to type it all here, but it is very obvious that "holding up" is NOT Time Out.
WMB

What you have said is true, but on page 75, "Umpire's Signals," it states "Do not pitch (and time out)." How can it be all the above?

WestMichBlue · #13 (**permalink**) Tue Mar 18, 2003, 01:35pm

If taken literally, seems to be conflicting info. What would you do if, while holding up the pitcher because the batter has one foot out of the box, the runner on 3B steps off to ask her coach something?
WMB

CecilOne · #14 (**permalink**) Tue Mar 18, 2003, 06:20pm

Quote:

Originally posted by WestMichBlue
If taken literally, seems to be conflicting info. What would you do if, while holding up the pitcher because the batter has one foot out of the box, the runner on 3B steps off to ask her coach something?
WMB

OUT! That's assuming all the conditions of pitcher has ball in circle, not playing on runner, etc. Prepare for debate!

CecilOne · #15 (**permalink**) Tue Mar 18, 2003, 06:26pm

Quote:

Originally posted by WestMichiganBlue
Fed Umpire Manual pg 37, section on Time out - Suspension of Play. I am not going to type it all here, but it is very obvious that "holding up" is NOT Time Out.
WMB

And besides that, one of the pitching infractions is pitching while "play is suspended", but there is no rule about pitching while "play is held up". Therefore, when a pitcher attempts to pitch during a holdup, play becomes suspended an instant before the picth is released.