Double first base question

[Big Slick]

This play is mostly for ASA (since it involves the DFB and language in Rule supplement #1):

No out, no runners on. B1 hit a ground ball to F6, and arrives at 1B before the (errant) throw (note: the errant throw is in the dirt, so this will constitute a "play at first"). B1 touches only the white portion of the base. The ball subsequently goes out of play, to which the umpire declares "dead ball" and places B1 on 2B. B1, who legally over ran 1B, proceeds directly to second base.

Question: if the defense appeals that the batter missed first base (by not being in compliance with the rules pertaining to the DFB) should we grant this appeal and declare the batter out?

I would really like to say that we can (after all, the runner has not complied with their base running obligations). However, in Rule Supplement #1 (Appeals), section about missing a base, language pertaining to DFB states "the appeal must be made before the runner returns to the base and the ball is live."

What do you think?

[NCASAUmp]

Did the errant throw pull the defensive player into foul territory?

If so, then they can appeal, but the correct call is safe (ASA 8-2-M-5).

There's also 8-2-M-6, but I'm not sure how well it applies to your situation:

On balls hit to the outfield with no play on the batter-runner advancing to first base, the batter-runner may touch the white or contrasting color portion.

Was the thrown ball on target, or did it sail over F3's head?

[Big Slick]

Originally Posted by NCASAUmp

Did the errant throw pull the defensive player into foul territory?

If so, then they can appeal, but the correct call is safe (ASA 8-2-M-5).

There's also 8-2-M-6, but I'm not sure how well it applies to your situation:


Was the thrown ball on target, or did it sail over F3's head?

For this particular play, the ball is "on target" (well, it the dirt, F3 just doesn't make the catch). I included this detail to eliminate all potential facets of the rule. Just your "run of the mill" play at first, B1 touches the white, followed by a dead ball.

[NCASAUmp]

Originally Posted by Big Slick

For this particular play, the ball is "on target" (well, it the dirt, F3 just doesn't make the catch). I included this detail to eliminate all potential facets of the rule. Just your "run of the mill" play at first, B1 touches the white, followed by a dead ball.

Did the BR cross 1B a lifetime before the ball ever got there? Or was it decently close enough (within a second or two)?

[Big Slick]

Originally Posted by NCASAUmp

Did the BR cross 1B a lifetime before the ball ever got there? Or was it decently close enough (within a second or two)?

Now, Dave, don't make me go all "Irish" on you.

The play: A. There is a play at first base, B. Runner only touched white bag, C. Ball went out of play before B1 returned to first, D. B1 is now standing on 2B.

The question: Can the defense appeal that B1 "missed 1B" per DFB rules OR does the language in RS#1 prohibit a dead ball appeal on this play?

[MD Longhorn]

Seems to me you have an out. The language there does not exclude the OP at all. Runner never returned to first at all. This is clearly a missed base.

[AtlUmpSteve]

Originally Posted by Big Slick

However, in Rule Supplement #1 (Appeals), section about missing a base, language pertaining to DFB states "the appeal must be made before the runner returns to the base and the ball is live."

What do you think?

I interpret this to mean that when the ball is live, the appeal must be made before the runner returns to the base.

And, of course, if the ball is dead, we allow the runner to complete running responsibilities. So, if the runner returns during the dead ball (and prior to touching the first awarded base), then there can be no appeal.

BUT, your play has a dead ball (so the quoted phrase does not apply) and the runner does not return; so the appeal can be allowed as a dead ball appeal, after the runner stops (indicating no further running intended).

[PSUchem]

Originally Posted by AtlUmpSteve

I interpret this to mean that when the ball is live, the appeal must be made before the runner returns to the base.

And, of course, if the ball is dead, we allow the runner to complete running responsibilities. So, if the runner returns during the dead ball (and prior to touching the first awarded base), then there can be no appeal.

BUT, your play has a dead ball (so the quoted phrase does not apply) and the runner does not return; so the appeal can be allowed as a dead ball appeal, after the runner stops (indicating no further running intended).

I agree with Steve. As long as there was no reason that the runner could have used the white bag (F3 being pulled into foul territory, and the runner trying to avoid contact), I would honor the appeal if the runner did not retouch first. I'm going to get hell for it, but I will honor it.

[Big Slick]

Originally Posted by AtlUmpSteve

I interpret this to mean that when the ball is live, the appeal must be made before the runner returns to the base.

And, of course, if the ball is dead, we allow the runner to complete running responsibilities. So, if the runner returns during the dead ball (and prior to touching the first awarded base), then there can be no appeal.

BUT, your play has a dead ball (so the quoted phrase does not apply) and the runner does not return; so the appeal can be allowed as a dead ball appeal, after the runner stops (indicating no further running intended).

Steve (and Mike),
I, like you too, would be very inclined to honor the dead ball appeal and declare the runner out. However (and the reason I wrote the play), is that the DFB has it own set of rules about missing a base (well,there were special rules for missing first base well before the other 15"X15" came into existence). Missing first base, or the equivalent of touching the incorrect color, is special in and of itself. A runner and legally over run 1B and not be in jeopardy, as they would be in jeopardy if they overrun 2B or 3B.

I'm paraphrasing the RS#1 which, by rule, makes it seem that you can only make this appeal under two conditions: 1) before the runner returns AND 2) the ball must be live. Taken literally, these conditions exclude a dead ball appeal. I understand that the rules and RS's are not prime examples of precise legal writing, but let's change that line in RS#1 to this:

"If the appeal for missing first base is a live ball appeal, it must be made before the runner returns to first base."

How would you defend honoring the appeal when the OC shows you this phrase?

[Far far away ..]

Originally Posted by Big Slick

"If the appeal for missing first base is a live ball appeal, it must be made before the runner returns to first base."

How would you defend honoring the appeal when the OC shows you this phrase?

Key word for me is "If" - suggesting that there is that other alternative, the dead ball appeal. I don't think anywhere it is stated the appeal must be made live.

Adding another subtley(?) - if a runner passes (or over-runs) a base they are assumed to have touched the base unless correctly appealed. At 1B having passed the base a BR can return now to the white portion of the base. Developing the sitch they could run through the white portion, and if they then return to the white portion before an appeal are IMO safe despite never having touched the safety side.

[Big Slick]

Originally Posted by Big Slick

Steve (and Mike),

I'm paraphrasing the RS#1 which, by rule, makes it seem that you can only make this appeal under two conditions: 1) before the runner returns AND 2) the ball must be live.

This is the exact phrasing (which is even worst that my paraphrasing):

"When an appeal is made in both situations (missing first base/touching incorrect color) it must be made prior to the runner returning to first base while the ball is live."

Again, this, literally, excludes any dead ball appeals.

Then again, rule 8-2-M-3 makes no mention of live ball/dead ball, only that the appeal is made "prior to the BR returning to first base." I just like the potential conflict if questioned (yes, I know, Rule supplements are not rules).

[Big Slick]

Originally Posted by Far far away ..

Adding another subtley(?) - if a runner passes (or over-runs) a base they are assumed to have touched the base unless correctly appealed. At 1B having passed the base a BR can return now to the white portion of the base. Developing the sitch they could run through the white portion, and if they then return to the white portion before an appeal are IMO safe despite never having touched the safety side.

Yes, that is the caveat for making the appeal before the runner returns, for it would be difficult to call a runner out for missing a base while they are standing on it (either color).

You replied before my correction, RS#1 provide the appeal to be made "while the ball is live." Any situation that would provoke the umpire to call "dead ball" before the runner got back to the bag? Well, maybe a SP umpire calling time too quickly (should call time when the pitcher has the ball and all activity has stopped). Maybe someone has been injured. Both of these will most likely result in the BR returning to first. However, a ball going out of play might not, and with that very specific statement about missing first base in very much black and white, there is potential conflict.

[Dakota]

Originally Posted by Big Slick

This is the exact phrasing (which is even worst that my paraphrasing):

"When an appeal is made in both situations (missing first base/touching incorrect color) it must be made prior to the runner returning to first base while the ball is live."

Again, this, literally, excludes any dead ball appeals.

Then again, rule 8-2-M-3 makes no mention of live ball/dead ball, only that the appeal is made "prior to the BR returning to first base." I just like the potential conflict if questioned (yes, I know, Rule supplements are not rules).

Unintended consequences of sloppy writing.

What they wrote:

When an appeal is made in both situations, it must be made prior to the runner returning to first base while the ball is live.

What they meant:

When an appeal is made while the ball is live in both situations, it must be made prior to the runner returning to first base.

[AtlUmpSteve]

Playing out all possibilities (all plays assume a play at first with errant throw, and either wrong base or missed any base):

1) BR steps on wrong base, overruns, returns during live play. Defense then appeals; too late, has been remedied before appeal.
2) BR steps on wrong base, overruns, returns during live play. Defense appeals before return; runner is out, missed base.
3) BR steps on wrong base, overruns, returns during dead ball. Defense then appeals; too late, has been remedied before appeal.
4) BR steps on wrong base, overruns, returns during dead ball. Defense appeals before return; appeal cannot be heard until runners complete running responsibilities. Then, same as #3.
5) BR steps on wrong base, overruns, continues to 2nd during live play without retouching. Defense appeals either dead ball OR live ball; runner is out, missed base.
6) BR steps on wrong base, overruns, continues to 2nd during dead ball without retouching. Defense appeals either dead ball OR live ball; runner is out, missed base.

The wording in RS#1 is to clarify the differences between #1, 2, and 3. That sentence does not apply to #5 or 6.

[Dakota]

But, suppose the BR doesn't overrun at all, but just continues to stand on the wrong base?