Appeal a turn toward second.

[AtlUmpSteve]

Unless something changes, I plan to be there, DJ.

[NCASAUmp]

Originally Posted by ncaaumpdj

im glad i just observe and dont get involved unless i feel my opinion will HELP...LOL See you in Colorado at fireworks steve?

DJ

*blink blink* Another Wisconsin ump? Originally from Milwaukee here.

Feel free to participate in the discussions anytime! We don't bite.

[shagpal]

I am a noob, and wish to comment...

if players are standing around confused and the ball is still live, as an umpire, I think it would be advisable to loudly announce, "the ball is still LIVE", without any stoppage of play.

I believe the smartest player on the field would react to force a play, or yell to other players to make a play, or a coach would yell out for players to make a play.

like calling "time, or dead ball" to announce stoppage of play, simply alerting players and coaches as to the status of play neither instructs any player on how to make a play, or denies them the ability to choose their play.

[NCASAUmp]

Originally Posted by shagpal

I am a noob, and wish to comment...

if players are standing around confused and the ball is still live, as an umpire, I think it would be advisable to loudly announce, "the ball is still LIVE", without any stoppage of play.

I believe the smartest player on the field would react to force a play, or yell to other players to make a play, or a coach would yell out for players to make a play.

like calling "time, or dead ball" to announce stoppage of play, simply alerting players and coaches as to the status of play neither instructs any player on how to make a play, or denies them the ability to choose their play.

Welcome, shagpal!

I believe the bold section is the most likely scenario: someone will notice that I'm not walking (ahem... hustling) back to my pre-pitch position.

I'd advise against announcing "the ball is live" for two reasons. One, it could be perceived as coaching. If they get the out, the base coach is gonna have a cow because, "you gave the defense a heads up!" If they don't get the out, the defensive coach is gonna have a fit because, "you gave the runner a heads up!" Either way, you're screwed.

Two, anytime we say anything, we run the risk of causing players (particularly runners) to stop. That being said, see number one above.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by shagpal

I am a noob, and wish to comment...

if players are standing around confused and the ball is still live, as an umpire, I think it would be advisable to loudly announce, "the ball is still LIVE", without any stoppage of play.

I believe the smartest player on the field would react to force a play, or yell to other players to make a play, or a coach would yell out for players to make a play.

like calling "time, or dead ball" to announce stoppage of play, simply alerting players and coaches as to the status of play neither instructs any player on how to make a play, or denies them the ability to choose their play.

Just out of curiosity, to which play are you commenting, the OP or the alternative STU offered concerning a delayed killing of the ball?

[shagpal]

the OP.

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

Just out of curiosity, to which play are you commenting, the OP or the alternative STU offered concerning a delayed killing of the ball?

[shagpal]

they'll blame you anyways dave. they'll accuse you made googly eye gestures or just freezing.

one time, on a live ball appeal, my partner accused me of poker face after the game. pathetic sportsmanship happens, there's no escaping it, my reaction and answer was, so what am I thinking now?

I don't wanna get sucked into these forum spats. I'm a noob.

Originally Posted by NCASAUmp

Welcome, shagpal!

I believe the bold section is the most likely scenario: someone will notice that I'm not walking (ahem... hustling) back to my pre-pitch position.

I'd advise against announcing "the ball is live" for two reasons. One, it could be perceived as coaching. If they get the out, the base coach is gonna have a cow because, "you gave the defense a heads up!" If they don't get the out, the defensive coach is gonna have a fit because, "you gave the runner a heads up!" Either way, you're screwed.

Two, anytime we say anything, we run the risk of causing players (particularly runners) to stop. That being said, see number one above.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by shagpal

if players are standing around confused and the ball is still live, as an umpire, I think it would be advisable to loudly announce, "the ball is still LIVE", without any stoppage of play.

I'm with Dave. The ball is in play. If there is confusion, that is the coach's issue with the players.

I believe the smartest player on the field would react to force a play, or yell to other players to make a play, or a coach would yell out for players to make a play.

If they were that smart, there would be no point of your concern.

like calling "time, or dead ball" to announce stoppage of play, simply alerting players and coaches as to the status of play neither instructs any player on how to make a play, or denies them the ability to choose their play.

Sorry, still with Dave. And pretty sure this would apply to rule sets. Umpires are directed to make particular calls and signals as specific times. What you are suggesting is not one of them

AAMOF, I have seen players stop dead in their tracks when umpires have used local, very local mechanics by calling "good ball" or "play it" on a base hit at a tournament with teams from outside the area. Umpires did not know any better because they were more than happy sticking with whatever got them through the leagues.

[shagpal]

okay then, how about, SAFE! improper appeal.

if you do nothing, freeze, put your hands in your pockets, make eye gestures, scratch your nose, readjust your hat, they will still blame you, because doing nothing might also be construed as a signal.

if your wife asks you, "honey, does this dress make me look fat?" if you say nothing, you are sleeping on the couch anyways.

nothing doesn't always mean nothing.

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

I'm with Dave. The ball is in play. If there is confusion, that is the coach's issue with the players.



If they were that smart, there would be no point of your concern.



Sorry, still with Dave. And pretty sure this would apply to rule sets. Umpires are directed to make particular calls and signals as specific times. What you are suggesting is not one of them

AAMOF, I have seen players stop dead in their tracks when umpires have used local, very local mechanics by calling "good ball" or "play it" on a base hit at a tournament with teams from outside the area. Umpires did not know any better because they were more than happy sticking with whatever got them through the leagues.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by shagpal

okay then, how about, SAFE! improper appeal.

If it is an improper appeal, how is their a call to make?

if you do nothing, freeze, put your hands in your pockets, make eye gestures, scratch your nose, readjust your hat, they will still blame you, because doing nothing might also be construed as a signal.

And if a meteor lands on the field, do you call time? Is a runner between bases advanced to the next base or return to the last touched?

How about umpiring in the manner as the respective sanctioning body instructs their umpire's to work? Or you can just continue to justify something that isn't correct. Whatever.

[shagpal]

as I understand it, this appeal is a live ball appeal that requires the runner to be tagged out, IF the defense wants to appeal properly. the OP describes an improper way of appealing that play. the runner is assumed safe until a proper appeal is made.

doing nothing isn't calling TIME, it's doing "not a thing", ball remains live. but doing nothing doesn't always mean nothing when you are requested for a response, which is what a live ball appeal is, a request. when an appeal is requested, you are expected to do something, respond. the longer you do nothing, the more you are communicating "something" anyways. there's almost no way out of that conundrum.

you are arguing doing nothing is better than doing anything at all. I am saying, it doesn't matter as long as what you do or say assists neither side. a null response of "ball is LIVE" would then be as good as nothing, but at least you responded w/ something, which is expected, and as good and about as useful to either side as nothing.

I can't comment about hypothetical meteors. I don't have a clue about those in this context.

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

If it is an improper appeal, how is their a call to make?



And if a meteor lands on the field, do you call time? Is a runner between bases advanced to the next base or return to the last touched?

How about umpiring in the manner as the respective sanctioning body instructs their umpire's to work? Or you can just continue to justify something that isn't correct. Whatever.

[youngump]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

And if a meteor lands on the field, do you call time? Is a runner between bases advanced to the next base or return to the last touched?

Hijacking this:
I know you meant this somewhat flippantly but it got me thinking about unusual interruptions and made me realize I'm not sure what to do if I ever have one. Suppose that something happens, a meteor is fairly unlikely, but someone running out on the field (or more likely in Seattle, a dog), or something like that which messed with a live ball. Maybe it'd be a ball fouled from another field at a tournament.

Should I leave the ball live or kill it and make a best guess at what would have happened? My inclination is that as long as the obstruction can be ignored wait until things settle down; if it actually gets in the way than kill it and straighten it out. In no case would it ever be appropriate to nullify a play, have to respond to what happened, but no pitch could conceivably be declared. Does that all sound right?
________
Paxil Settlement Update

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by youngump

Hijacking this:
I know you meant this somewhat flippantly but it got me thinking about unusual interruptions and made me realize I'm not sure what to do if I ever have one. Suppose that something happens, a meteor is fairly unlikely, but someone running out on the field (or more likely in Seattle, a dog), or something like that which messed with a live ball. Maybe it'd be a ball fouled from another field at a tournament.

Should I leave the ball live or kill it and make a best guess at what would have happened? My inclination is that as long as the obstruction can be ignored wait until things settle down; if it actually gets in the way than kill it and straighten it out. In no case would it ever be appropriate to nullify a play, have to respond to what happened, but no pitch could conceivably be declared. Does that all sound right?

As long as the nuisance is not affecting the play or the players ability to execute a play, leave it alone. If you are forced to stop play, the rule of thumb is that you place the runner on the base to which they were closest when you/partner killed the play.

A little common sense also need to be applied here. If a runner is heading toward base the defender is standing there with the ball and/or in your judgment, the runner would most likely be out, do not award that base to that runner UNLESS forced to do so due to the base behind him/her is already occupied.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by shagpal

as I understand it, this appeal is a live ball appeal that requires the runner to be tagged out, IF the defense wants to appeal properly. the OP describes an improper way of appealing that play. the runner is assumed safe until a proper appeal is made.

doing nothing isn't calling TIME, it's doing "not a thing", ball remains live. but doing nothing doesn't always mean nothing when you are requested for a response, which is what a live ball appeal is, a request. when an appeal is requested, you are expected to do something, respond. the longer you do nothing, the more you are communicating "something" anyways. there's almost no way out of that conundrum.

you are arguing doing nothing is better than doing anything at all. I am saying, it doesn't matter as long as what you do or say assists neither side. a null response of "ball is LIVE" would then be as good as nothing, but at least you responded w/ something, which is expected, and as good and about as useful to either side as nothing.

And all I am saying is that as the official contracted to provide a service you do so in accordance with the provisions and direction of the rules and manuals of the sanctioning body under which the game is being played.

[shagpal]

your comment was previously noted already. I do not know where in the rulebook or umpires manual that says that ignoring an appeal when requested is permissible. the discussion issue is what is an umpire's duty when the appeal is made as the OP described.

from the thread responses, you seem to maintain that doing nothing is not only acceptable, but is the only proper thing to do. I am not saying that it's not something you couldn't do. I am suggesting that doing nothing might be a cop out, and it could or might even be wrong. but I am working off the premise that when team asks an umpire in an appeal situation to rule, as in this instance, an umpire is obligated to respond and rule w/in a finite duration as prescribed in the umpire's manual.

when requested, the umpire has 4 possible responses, do NOTHING, call TIME, call OUT, call SAFE. when confronted with an appeal situation as OP described, does an umpire have all the elements to call OUT? is the umpire permitted to do and say NOTHING? if you call TIME, are you looking for a new job?

lets say for argument's sake an umpire rules SAFE at 1B on the OP's appeal situation. ball is still LIVE regardless. the D could still throw the ball back into the circle, or still run down and tag that runner, and if they do, it's still a live ball appeal. an initial ruling does not preclude further follow up appeal in NFHS. in ASA, not sure, I think you only get one.

since I am here to discuss, not to name call, and since you volunteered to help comment, please by all means, make the call.

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

And all I am saying is that as the official contracted to provide a service you do so in accordance with the provisions and direction of the rules and manuals of the sanctioning body under which the game is being played.