Appeal a turn toward second.

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by SC Ump

Question around FED 8-4-2(b)

R1 at 3B, no outs. BR hits ball to F5 and then is safe at 1B. She overruns down the right field line. R1 held at 3B and does not score.

While BR is approximate 30 or 40 feet down the line, she makes an attempt for 2B and then turns back toward 1B and just stops. F3 while holding the ball steps on 1B and appeals that F3 has made an attempt for second. BU rules B2 is out on appeal since F3 is not expected to chase B2 into right field to tag her out, especially with a runner at third.

Anyone disagree?

OK, here is the OP again.

If BR was tagged out after "she makes an attempt for 2B", that is an out because she has forfeited her exemption on the overrun.

The possibility of the BR advancing toward 2nd eliminates any non-tag appeal at 1st;
and by 8-7-4-c in the LBR, she must "advance non-stop to second base".

R1 at 3rd has no beariing on the ruling.

The OP says "F3 is not expected to chase B2". If so, that could change the outcome. Where is it written?

[Dakota]

Originally Posted by CecilOne

...by 8-7-4-c in the LBR, she must "advance non-stop to second base".

LBR is not in effect... F3 has the ball.

Originally Posted by CecilOne

"F3 is not expected to chase B2". If so, that could change the outcome. Where is it written?

In the case book ruling on abandoning a base.

ABANDONING A BASE
8.6.22 SITUATION A: B1 reaches first safely. In her overrun, she breaks for second and then "gives up" far away from the baseline. RULING: If B1 is attempting to reach a base, she must be tagged out, but the fielder is not expected to chase her into the outfield. In the outlined case, B1 is out for giving up. (8-4-2; 8-6-2)

This case play does not apply. The runner is not "far away from the baseline", so there is no ruling of abandoning the attempt to reach a base. Besides, this, also, is not an appeal.

[DaveASA/FED]

Ok coming in late to this party, seems like ya'll got things going pretty good about now. So let me ask you this, on the field I got a runner past first base, and a fielder appearing to make a live ball appeal. In my umpiring mind the only thing I can see is that the fielder is making a live ball appeal of the runner missing first base, or touching the incorrect part of first base. That's the only thing I can think of to rule on an appeal in this situation. So what if we signal safe and say "They touched the base", or something along those lines.

I don't love that idea, but I don't like standing around either, although I have never seen a time where someone didn't do something in a game (I'm a FP guy remember) someone is always gonna throw, tag or run for the most part. But in my offering I ruled on what I thought the fielder was appealing, cause there is nothing else to appeal in the OP so I could see that working too, no coaching but you know I'm not calling anyone out either and if your smart if I didnt' call them out then they are still live to run or be tagged out.

[Dakota]

Originally Posted by DaveASA/FED

...I got a runner past first base, and a fielder appearing to make a live ball appeal. In my umpiring mind the only thing I can see is that the fielder is making a live ball appeal of the runner missing first base, or touching the incorrect part of first base. That's the only thing I can think of to rule on an appeal in this situation. So what if we signal safe and say "They touched the base", or something along those lines...

The so-called appeal was not for missing the base:

Originally Posted by SC Ump

...F3 while holding the ball steps on 1B and appeals that F3 has made an attempt for second....

[DaveASA/FED]

Originally Posted by Dakota

The so-called appeal was not for missing the base:

I get that but I am questioning how we knew that is what they were appealing for? Did the F3 say "Mr. Umpire I believe that the runner is obligated to 2nd base thus I am appealing that they should be out since they are off the base and I am holding the ball on the base they should have to return to."?? I guess I don't know how to answer an appeal that really isn't an appealable play during a live ball, thus my answer that I interpert the appeal to be a missed base, or wrong base contacted and I ruled on that appeal since that is the only legit appeal that could be made at that time. Again not sure that is what I would do in a game.....but one way to handle it!

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by Dakota

The so-called appeal was not for missing the base:

He is not the first to miss that in this topic.

[CecilOne]

Quote:
Originally Posted by CecilOne
...by 8-7-4-c in the LBR, she must "advance non-stop to second base".

LBR is not in effect... F3 has the ball.

Oh yeah, I forgot.

[BretMan]

Originally Posted by Dakota

Besides, this, also, is not an appeal.

It's kind of the red-headed stepchild of the four appealable situations listed in the rule book, but the rule is clear it is an appeal play (2-2d). It's just not an appeal in the same mold as the others. It is also unique in that it must be a live ball appeal and it must be accomplished by appying a tag to the runner while she's off the base.

If you accept the premise that this is an appealable play (which might be hard to accept, but it's right there in the rule book), the question becomes: What do we do if we have an appealable play, the defensive player attempts to make the appeal, but the player does not properly execute the appeal?

[shagpal]

xactly. it is an appealable play, improperly appealed by the defense. the umpire must rule.

Originally Posted by BretMan

It's kind of the red-headed stepchild of the four appealable situations listed in the rule book, but the rule is clear it is an appeal play (2-2d). It's just not an appeal in the same mold as the others. It is also unique in that it must be a live ball appeal and it must be accomplished by appying a tag to the runner while she's off the base.

If you accept the premise that this is an appealable play (which might be hard to accept, but it's right there in the rule book), the question becomes: What do we do if we have an appealable play, the defensive player attempts to make the appeal, but the player does not properly execute the appeal?

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by shagpal

xactly. it is an appealable play, improperly appealed by the defense. the umpire must rule.

To finish my comments:
- no ruling, wait for players to do something legitimate
- please type replies after the quotes to make it easier for all to follow

[Dakota]

Originally Posted by BretMan

...It's just not an appeal in the same mold as the others. It is also unique in that it must be a live ball appeal and it must be accomplished by appying a tag to the runner while she's off the base....

Exactly, since it is not in the same mold as other appeal plays, the umpire must treat in differently; in fact, exactly the same as tagging a runner off the base. The general instruction for appeals in both the rule book and the umpire manual largely do not apply to this so-called appeal. For example, the rule book merely says this situation is a live ball appeal only, so why isn't tagging the base a proper appeal? Well, because 8-6-8 says the runner must be tagged.

[CecilOne]

Yes, I have been converted. Recognizing that no signal is best because "safe" is misleading, the downside seems to be the fielder now being distracted by our lack of response and the ensuing screaming, yelling, and arguing. I have never thought those kind of downsides justified not calling something correctly.

The question is then, what game management technique(s) to use to get everyone back to playing? What are your suggestions?

[Paul L]

Originally Posted by CecilOne

what game management technique(s) to use to get everyone back to playing?

Get into position and stay alert. Expect a tag attempt, a pickoff throw, or the ball getting to the pitcher in the circle. Let the players play and the coaches coach.

We're getting into the twilight zone here. Has anyone ever had a stalemate last longer than a minute, or even a few seconds, before someone did something?

I might respond to any comments or questions directed at me with "live ball" or "That's not an appeal". And I might be quick to call the game for darkness when we actually reach twilight.

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by Paul L

Get into position and stay alert. Expect a tag attempt, a pickoff throw, or the ball getting to the pitcher in the circle. Let the players play and the coaches coach.

We're getting into the twilight zone here. Has anyone ever had a stalemate last longer than a minute, or even a few seconds, before someone did something?

I might respond to any comments or questions directed at me with "live ball" or "That's not an appeal". And I might be quick to call the game for darkness when we actually reach twilight.

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

Just stay with the play. Move to the best possible position for any possible subsequent play. The players have coaches and teammates to help them react and perform on the field and you have........yourself and the mechanics. You just do your job which does not include making up for the players' shortcomings. It is their job to know how to play the game, our job to officiate it.

That was not what I meant. I guess I assumed that part, always optimizing position, alertness, not being in the way, etc.

I intended the question to be about handling the non-playing result:
- fielder coming to you with an argument
- runner doing the same
- base coach getting in the way while complaining
- activity like that
any or all of which confuses or disrupts the situation to the point of something having to be done. For example, at what point do you
- hold up a hand to dissuade the arguer
- back away a little to indicate there is no play going on
- verbally exert more control
- etc., like the red wording above?

[CecilOne]

I don't like reading upside down.