Appeal a turn toward second.

[shagpal]

(mike), if you are gonna throw the book at a fellow umpires, be prepared to have it thrown back at you.

READ the NFHS umpire manual. it is explicit. you are trying to interpret your position, but the rule spells it out explicitly, NOTHING is NOT an option.

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

Out of curiousity, are you an umpire? Or just a ballplayer out of CA? How much training have you experience? Every play deserves a call? Never heard that one because it really isn't so. If a throw is made to retire a runner at 2B and the ball gets by and is rolling in the outfield, do you still come up with a big safe? Ever hear of "no ball, no call"?

Tex misapplied a mechanic to a play that is described as an appeal play that truly is not an appeal play, but simply a live ball still in play where a runner may or may not advance and the defense can only stop the runner by putting them out or throwing the ball out of play. Something I believe we have established here via the rule book. I guess we really don't need a case study then, do we?

[DaveASA/FED]

Originally Posted by Dakota

The so-called appeal was not for missing the base:

I get that but I am questioning how we knew that is what they were appealing for? Did the F3 say "Mr. Umpire I believe that the runner is obligated to 2nd base thus I am appealing that they should be out since they are off the base and I am holding the ball on the base they should have to return to."?? I guess I don't know how to answer an appeal that really isn't an appealable play during a live ball, thus my answer that I interpert the appeal to be a missed base, or wrong base contacted and I ruled on that appeal since that is the only legit appeal that could be made at that time. Again not sure that is what I would do in a game.....but one way to handle it!

[DaveASA/FED]

Originally Posted by shagpal

dave, if you are gonna throw the book at a fellow umpires, be prepared to have ti thrown back at you.

READ the NFHS umpire manual. it is explicit. you are trying to interpret your position, but the rule spells it out explicitly, NOTHING is NOT an option.

Not sure who you are talking to, you quoted Irish, who is Mike. But I will pull my FED book out tonight and look at it in detail and see what it says about ruling on improper live ball appeals. I don't remember covering that section in any of my training.

[Dakota]

Originally Posted by DaveASA/FED

I get that but I am questioning how we knew that is what they were appealing for? Did the F3 say "Mr. Umpire I believe that the runner is obligated to 2nd base thus I am appealing that they should be out since they are off the base and I am holding the ball on the base they should have to return to."?? I guess I don't know how to answer an appeal that really isn't an appealable play during a live ball, thus my answer that I interpert the appeal to be a missed base, or wrong base contacted and I ruled on that appeal since that is the only legit appeal that could be made at that time. Again not sure that is what I would do in a game.....but one way to handle it!

I was just going by what the OP said...

[BretMan]

Originally Posted by Dakota

Besides, this, also, is not an appeal.

It's kind of the red-headed stepchild of the four appealable situations listed in the rule book, but the rule is clear it is an appeal play (2-2d). It's just not an appeal in the same mold as the others. It is also unique in that it must be a live ball appeal and it must be accomplished by appying a tag to the runner while she's off the base.

If you accept the premise that this is an appealable play (which might be hard to accept, but it's right there in the rule book), the question becomes: What do we do if we have an appealable play, the defensive player attempts to make the appeal, but the player does not properly execute the appeal?

[shagpal]

xactly. it is an appealable play, improperly appealed by the defense. the umpire must rule.

Originally Posted by BretMan

It's kind of the red-headed stepchild of the four appealable situations listed in the rule book, but the rule is clear it is an appeal play (2-2d). It's just not an appeal in the same mold as the others. It is also unique in that it must be a live ball appeal and it must be accomplished by appying a tag to the runner while she's off the base.

If you accept the premise that this is an appealable play (which might be hard to accept, but it's right there in the rule book), the question becomes: What do we do if we have an appealable play, the defensive player attempts to make the appeal, but the player does not properly execute the appeal?

[shagpal]

oh, right on. sorry dave,

yes, I was responding to mike (irish), the one throwing the book at anyone who disagrees w/ his position.

Originally Posted by DaveASA/FED

Not sure who you are talking to, you quoted Irish, who is Mike. But I will pull my FED book out tonight and look at it in detail and see what it says about ruling on improper live ball appeals. I don't remember covering that section in any of my training.

umpires can ask if it is unclear what the defense is appealing. umpires should ask the appellant what and which player they are appealing. asking such questions is not coaching. this comes straight outa the CCA umpires manual. seems that not clarifying and not ruling is a cop out. doing nothing would NOT an option.

Originally Posted by DaveASA/FED

Ok coming in late to this party, seems like ya'll got things going pretty good about now. So let me ask you this, on the field I got a runner past first base, and a fielder appearing to make a live ball appeal. In my umpiring mind the only thing I can see is that the fielder is making a live ball appeal of the runner missing first base, or touching the incorrect part of first base. That's the only thing I can think of to rule on an appeal in this situation. So what if we signal safe and say "They touched the base", or something along those lines.

I don't love that idea, but I don't like standing around either, although I have never seen a time where someone didn't do something in a game (I'm a FP guy remember) someone is always gonna throw, tag or run for the most part. But in my offering I ruled on what I thought the fielder was appealing, cause there is nothing else to appeal in the OP so I could see that working too, no coaching but you know I'm not calling anyone out either and if your smart if I didnt' call them out then they are still live to run or be tagged out.

[Dakota]

Originally Posted by BretMan

...It's just not an appeal in the same mold as the others. It is also unique in that it must be a live ball appeal and it must be accomplished by appying a tag to the runner while she's off the base....

Exactly, since it is not in the same mold as other appeal plays, the umpire must treat in differently; in fact, exactly the same as tagging a runner off the base. The general instruction for appeals in both the rule book and the umpire manual largely do not apply to this so-called appeal. For example, the rule book merely says this situation is a live ball appeal only, so why isn't tagging the base a proper appeal? Well, because 8-6-8 says the runner must be tagged.

[Dakota]

Originally Posted by shagpal

...this comes straight outa the CCA umpires manual.....

So what? The OP is a Fed situation.

[shagpal]

oh! I didn't pick up on that. but, I agree, so what?

Originally Posted by Dakota

So what? the OP is a Fed situation.

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by Dakota

The so-called appeal was not for missing the base:

He is not the first to miss that in this topic.

[CecilOne]

Quote:
Originally Posted by CecilOne
...by 8-7-4-c in the LBR, she must "advance non-stop to second base".

LBR is not in effect... F3 has the ball.

Oh yeah, I forgot.

[CecilOne]

Quote:
Originally Posted by CecilOne
"F3 is not expected to chase B2". If so, that could change the outcome. Where is it written?

In the case book ruling on abandoning a base.
I didn't check 8-6, so didn't see that, but it does not seem abandoning to me.

--------------------------------------------------------------
Quote:
ABANDONING A BASE
8.6.22 SITUATION A: B1 reaches first safely. In her overrun, she breaks for second and then "gives up" far away from the baseline. RULING: If B1 is attempting to reach a base, she must be tagged out, but the fielder is not expected to chase her into the outfield. In the outlined case, B1 is out for giving up. (8-4-2; 8-6-2)

This case play does not apply. The runner is not "far away from the baseline", so there is no ruling of abandoning the attempt to reach a base.
Agree, does not apply, so doesn't that mean the fielder has to apply a tag, chasing if needed.

------------------------------------------------------------
Besides, this, also, is not an appeal.
It is a live ball appeal if the fielder does apply a tag before the runner reaches a base.

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by shagpal

xactly. it is an appealable play, improperly appealed by the defense. the umpire must rule.

To finish my comments:
- no ruling, wait for players to do something legitimate
- please type replies after the quotes to make it easier for all to follow

[shagpal]

I can only repeat, this appears to me to fully comply with an appealable play that is improperly appealed by the defense. umpire is obligated to make a call. the umpire's manual is explicit on this, that no ruling is not an option.

Originally Posted by CecilOne

To finish my comments:
- no ruling, wait for players to do something legitimate
- please type replies after the quotes to make it easier for all to follow