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Old Thu Jan 21, 2010, 06:18pm
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Appeal a turn toward second.

Question around FED 8-4-2(b)

R1 at 3B, no outs. BR hits ball to F5 and then is safe at 1B. She overruns down the right field line. R1 held at 3B and does not score.

While BR is approximate 30 or 40 feet down the line, she makes an attempt for 2B and then turns back toward 1B and just stops. F3 while holding the ball steps on 1B and appeals that F3 has made an attempt for second. BU rules B2 is out on appeal since F3 is not expected to chase B2 into right field to tag her out, especially with a runner at third.

Anyone disagree?
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Old Thu Jan 21, 2010, 06:20pm
SRW SRW is offline
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Yes. I disagree.
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Old Thu Jan 21, 2010, 06:50pm
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Originally Posted by SRW View Post
Yes. I disagree.
Me, too. F3 would have been smarter to throw the ball to the pitcher in the circle.
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Old Thu Jan 21, 2010, 07:12pm
Tex Tex is offline
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I agree with the ruling. If the umpire did not honor the appeal and call the out, B2 could stop and just stand without returning to 1st base, F3 could stand on 1st base, and the 3rd base runner would stand off base. At some point the umpire must make a call to continue the ball game.

If the ball is thrown to the pitcher after the attempt, the defense has lost the out. There has to be an out for the attempt.

Last edited by Tex; Thu Jan 21, 2010 at 07:16pm.
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Old Thu Jan 21, 2010, 07:31pm
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Originally Posted by Tex View Post
I agree with the ruling. If the umpire did not honor the appeal and call the out, B2 could stop and just stand without returning to 1st base, F3 could stand on 1st base, and the 3rd base runner would stand off base. At some point the umpire must make a call to continue the ball game.
So when the runner heads toward 2B during the live ball without being tagged, how are you going to support the ruling when it is protested?

It's a live ball and the runner is allowed to advance at their own peril. Unless the runner missed the base (which is not part of this scenario), there is no appeal available at that point.

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If the ball is thrown to the pitcher after the attempt, the defense has lost the out. There has to be an out for the attempt.
If F3 threw the ball to the pitcher in the circle, the LBR is in effect the the runner cannot change her mind.
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Old Thu Jan 21, 2010, 09:56pm
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Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA View Post
Unless the runner missed the base (which is not part of this scenario), there is no appeal available at that point.
When a runner misses 1B and overruns, we call safe or out depending on where the runner was when the fielder received the throw. This is an appeal by the defense and must be done before the runner gets back to the base.

A lot of times F3 [or F4 covering 1B in bunt situations] will not realize the runner missed the base. Often times, the runner does realize s/he missed the base. Some runners are blatantly obvious in their attempt to get back, some are blatantly oblivious, some are very cool about it hoping no one noticed.

The question after all this is can anyone on the defense appeal the runner missing the base? Different for ASA/NFHS?

On a routine play, F1 or F4 may be in the best situation to see this [if they actually pay attention]. If they yell out "she missed the base!" do we accept the appeal as such, or must the runner be physically tagged?
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Old Thu Jan 21, 2010, 10:21pm
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Originally Posted by Tru_in_Blu View Post
When a runner misses 1B and overruns, we call safe or out depending on where the runner was when the fielder received the throw. This is an appeal by the defense and must be done before the runner gets back to the base.
Yes, I'm well aware of that, but that was not the case here and only mentioned as the only live ball appeal available and resolved by simple touching the base while in possession of the ball.

Quote:
A lot of times F3 [or F4 covering 1B in bunt situations] will not realize the runner missed the base. Often times, the runner does realize s/he missed the base. Some runners are blatantly obvious in their attempt to get back, some are blatantly oblivious, some are very cool about it hoping no one noticed.
Okay, still off topic.

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The question after all this is can anyone on the defense appeal the runner missing the base? Different for ASA/NFHS?
No, that wasn't the question.

Quote:
On a routine play, F1 or F4 may be in the best situation to see this [if they actually pay attention]. If they yell out "she missed the base!" do we accept the appeal as such, or must the runner be physically tagged?
Maybe you should start another thread instead of hijacking this one.
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Last edited by IRISHMAFIA; Thu Jan 21, 2010 at 10:31pm.
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Old Thu Jan 21, 2010, 10:28pm
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Not sure what appeal Tex is ruling on.

Ted
B. live. In all games an appeal may be made during a live ball by any fielder
in possession of the ball touching the base missed or left too soon on a
caught fly ball, or by tagging the runner committing the violation if they
are still on the playing field.

Paul
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Old Thu Jan 21, 2010, 10:37pm
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Originally Posted by Az.Ump View Post
Not sure what appeal Tex is ruling on.

Ted
B. live. In all games an appeal may be made during a live ball by any fielder
in possession of the ball touching the base missed or left too soon on a
caught fly ball, or by tagging the runner committing the violation if they
are still on the playing field.

Paul
But attempting to put out a runner who attempts to advance to 2B is not an appeal play. For that matter, 8.7.H (ASA) demands the runner be tagged while not in contact with the base to be ruled out. Doubt NFHS is different.
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Last edited by IRISHMAFIA; Thu Jan 21, 2010 at 10:44pm.
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Old Thu Jan 21, 2010, 10:50pm
Tex Tex is offline
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There is a proper live ball appeal with F3 holding the ball while standing on 1st base, concerning the batter-runnerís attempt toward 2nd base that must be addressed. I am not going to allow all 3 players to stop and stare at each other waiting for something to happen. The umpire must make a ruling on the live ball appeal before allowing the next part of this play to continue (that of the LBR to be in effect).

Allowing the LBR to be in effect allows all 3 players to go to their proper base / position as nothing happened, thus removing the live ball appeal.

Now how are you going to handle the protest of not addressing the proper live ball appeal of the batter runnerís attempt toward 2nd base at the proper time, and allowing this play to continue?

The live ball appeal must be addressed first.

Again I have an out on the batter-runner on the proper live ball appeal. Now throw the ball to F1 and engage the LBR and allow the play to continue.
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Old Thu Jan 21, 2010, 11:00pm
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There is nothing to appeal. The batter/runner touched first base and was safe, then made a move toward second and must now be tagged with the ball to be out.
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Old Thu Jan 21, 2010, 11:05pm
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Ted,
You ask can anyone make an appeal. If the ball is live any player can but they need the ball.

Tex,
What is being appealed? Look through the appeals section and see if you can find something that applies to the OP.

Paul
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Old Thu Jan 21, 2010, 11:10pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tex View Post
There is a proper live ball appeal with F3 holding the ball while standing on 1st base, concerning the batter-runnerís attempt toward 2nd base that must be addressed. I am not going to allow all 3 players to stop and stare at each other waiting for something to happen. The umpire must make a ruling on the live ball appeal before allowing the next part of this play to continue (that of the LBR to be in effect).
There is no appeal available.

Quote:
Allowing the LBR to be in effect allows all 3 players to go to their proper base / position as nothing happened, thus removing the live ball appeal.
Again, there is no live ball appeal and if the LBR is in effect, it still isn't a free pass to a base as the defense can still make an attempt to retire any runner.

Quote:
Now how are you going to handle the protest of not addressing the proper live ball appeal of the batter runnerís attempt toward 2nd base at the proper time, and allowing this play to continue?
Simple, I'm going to properly uphold the protest.

Quote:
The live ball appeal must be addressed first.

Again I have an out on the batter-runner on the proper live ball appeal. Now throw the ball to F1 and engage the LBR and allow the play to continue.
Then you are going to lose the protest.
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Old Fri Jan 22, 2010, 12:33am
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Under NFHS 2-1-2-d, Types of Appeals "Attempting to advance to second base after making the turn at first base overrunning first base (live-ball appeal only)." underline added

So, this is a defined appeal in NFHS, but can only be remedied as a live ball appeal.

Under NFHS 2-1-3-a Methods by which an appeal may be made "Live. An appeal may be made during a live ball by any fielder in possession of the ball by touching the base missed or left too soon on a caught fly ball, or by tagging the runner committing the violation if she is still on the playing field (even if she is standing on another base)."

That should be clear that ONLY missed bases or bases left too soon may be appealed live by touching the applicable base; in any other case, the sole remedy is to tag the runner with the ball.

So, yes this an appeal situation; however, you cannot rule on it unless appealed properly, which requires tagging the runner. The only protest that could be upheld is one stating that the umpire misapplied the rule by declaring an out without a proper appeal.

The defense has all the options available to them at this point; 1) advance toward R2, who is in jeopardy if tagged, and a) tag her out, or b) possibly get a call for out of basepath, since R2 must then advance directly toward either 1st or 2nd base, not in any other avoiding direction (now avoiding a tag), or 2) return the ball to F1 in the circle, which forces R1 to remain on 3rd, forces R2 to immediately advance to 2nd or return to 1st (LBR violation if she hesitates), and then the option of playing on R2 when she gets closer to the base to get the out (while holding R1 at 3rd since she cannot leave the base until a play or faked play is made).

In no case does the rule allow the umpire to declare a live ball appeal out on R1 unless she is tagged with the ball while off a base.
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Old Fri Jan 22, 2010, 01:05am
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There really are a small, limited number of things that can constitute a legitimate appeal play. The obvious ones are missing a base, leaving a base too soon on a caught fly ball and batting out of order.

Those all make sense are are obvious. ASA and NFHS list one more appealable situation- Attempting to advance to second base after making a turn at first base. Generally, appeals apply to a violation of the playing rules. I don't really get how a runner rounding first base and making an attempt toward second is considered a "violation" of any rule. The runner is legally attempting to advance and isn't doing anything prohibited by rule. That just seems an odd thing to include under the catagory of "appeals", when it seems to fall under the normal rules requiring a tag on an advancing runner.

But the rule is there, for whatever reason, lumped in with other appeals that are violations of specific playing rules. And the rules are clear that this particular play DOES require an actual tag of the runner, not the base!

The NFHS rule adds a little note that this particular appeal can ONLY be executed as a live-ball appeal (that makes it different than all the others, which can be made during a dead ball). The ASA rule doesn't spell that out, but a reading of their rule infers that this is also the case in their game.

(For whatever credit the NFHS gets for clarifying this must be a live-ball appeal, you have to ding them for the sentence that describes this as an appeal play. It is an oddly-worded sentence fragment that in itself makes no sense. There seems to be a word or two missing, or something printed out-of-sequence, or pooly edited. Maybe that is adding to the confusion.)

Let's call this an appeal play (the rules do, after all) and let's agree that it can only be a live-ball appeal (the rules agree with that). Now take a minute to read about live-ball appeals.

"(A live-ball appeal) may be made during a live ball by any fielder in possession of the ball touching the base missed or left too soon on a caught fly ball, or by tagging the runner committing the violation if (the runner) is still on the playing field."

The rule says that tagging the base is an acceptable form of live-ball appeal in two circumstances: A missed base or one left too soon on catch. The play offered here is neither one of those!

That leaves us with tagging the runner as the only means of executing a successful live-ball appeal.

It still bugs me that the rules treat this as some sort of "appealable violation" by the runner, when the runner has the right to try to round the bag and a tag would be required on any other runner rounding any other base and being off of it during a live ball. But I don't see any way in the world that you can get from the rules that simply tagging the base is an acceptable means of making this appeal.
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