Appeal a turn toward second.

[UMP 64]

We have a lot of solutions for many different solutions. As I see it with NFHS rules, there are 2 possible solutions.
1. The runner must be tagged to record an out. This may create a rundown, that will establish her base path "ONLY" when an attempt is made to tag her. If there are multiple throws to tag the batter/runner B2, she creates a new base line with each throw, so the 6' base path can change with each throw. It is not always a direct line between 1B & 2B.
2. throw the ball to the pitcher and force the runners to go directly to a base LBR in force. I would rather give up 2nd base than a run.

[Stevetheump]

Originally Posted by AtlUmpSteve

Anything we do must have the support of the rules. And, there is no rule support to do anything with this play. Until the players play this to a completion, live ball, play is in progress.

1) Runner is not out, because nothing makes the runner out.
2) You cannot properly call "time"; ASA 10.4-E "An umpire will not call time while any play is in progress ..." and ASA 10.4-H An umpire will not suspend play at the request of players, coaches or managers until all action in progress has been completed."

The most you can do is state something like "The ball is live until returned to the pitcher and runners return to their bases", or "I cannot call that runner out unless you tag her off the base", or "I cannot grant time will the ball is in play and runners are in jeopardy". Until they resolve it, you cannot actively "do" anything, or apply any rule.

Steve - It's NOT up to us to "coach" the players. Example: (ASA SP)I had R1 on 1st, no outs. Fly ball to right field. R1 comes off the base 5 FEET as the ball is in-flight (and I had him lined up with the RFer). The ball is caught by RF and R1 advances to 2nd without tagging up. Now, I'm THINKING "appeal play." The ball is thrown to an infielder and I DELAYED calling "time." The 3rd baseman says: "Blue, he left the base too soon." I say nothing. The ball is then thrown to the pitcher. It is now obvious to me NO appeal play is forthcoming. So now I call "time." I go back behind HP, the next batter comes up and I signal/call "play ball." The defense never repeated the appeal. Had they simply STATED the appeal during the "dead ball" period, I would have ruled the runner out. And, was I ever ready to ring him up.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by Stevetheump

Steve - It's NOT up to us to "coach" the players. Example: (ASA SP)I had R1 on 1st, no outs. Fly ball to right field. R1 comes off the base 5 FEET as the ball is in-flight (and I had him lined up with the RFer). The ball is caught by RF and R1 advances to 2nd without tagging up. Now, I'm THINKING "appeal play." The ball is thrown to an infielder and I DELAYED calling "time." The 3rd baseman says: "Blue, he left the base too soon." I say nothing. The ball is then thrown to the pitcher. It is now obvious to me NO appeal play is forthcoming. So now I call "time." I go back behind HP, the next batter comes up and I signal/call "play ball." The defense never repeated the appeal. Had they simply STATED the appeal during the "dead ball" period, I would have ruled the runner out. And, was I ever ready to ring him up.

IMO, that may have been over-officious and missed the play. If all play was apparently completed, which means R1 is not showing any indication of advancing to the next or previous base and the defense wasn't attempting to make a live ball appeal, you probably should have called time and accepted the appeal.

Don't know why you would delay calling time if nothing was imminent.

BTW, the ball is not dead when a pitch hits the ground in all SP.

[Stevetheump]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

IMO, that may have been over-officious and missed the play. If all play was apparently completed, which means R1 is not showing any indication of advancing to the next or previous base and the defense wasn't attempting to make a live ball appeal, you probably should have called time and accepted the appeal.

Don't know why you would delay calling time if nothing was imminent.

BTW, the ball is not dead when a pitch hits the ground in all SP.

Irish - How can that be "over officious?" I delayed calling "time" for TWO reasons:
1. To give the runner the OPPORTUNITY to retouch 1st
2. To give the defense an OPPORTUNITY to make a live ball appeal.
Had I called "time" immediately, by rule, he cannot retouch. Once I saw he was NOT going to retouch and that and that the defense was NOT going to make an appeal, THEN I called "time."
And, the proper mechanic is to call "time" THEN they state the appeal.
In REGULAR SP, yes, the ball is "dead" once a pitch hits the ground. Which is why a batter CANNOT hit a pitched ball once the ball hits the ground.
Got that, Sparky?

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by Stevetheump

Irish - How can that be "over officious?" I delayed calling "time" for TWO reasons:
1. To give the runner the OPPORTUNITY to retouch 1st
2. To give the defense an OPPORTUNITY to make a live ball appeal.
Had I called "time" immediately, by rule, he cannot retouch. Once I saw he was NOT going to retouch and that and that the defense was NOT going to make an appeal, THEN I called "time."
And, the proper mechanic is to call "time" THEN they state the appeal.

Because you emphasized "DELAYED", I'm assuming you waited longer than you normally would have had you not anticipated an appeal.

When all immediate play is complete, the umpire should call time (10.4.I). You seem to have changed your mechanic to accommodate an anticipated appeal. The statement that "he cannot touch" just isn't true. Runners are NOT locked to a position just because you call time. For that matter, you must give them the opportunity to complete all running responsibilities and if that is to return and retouch the base left too soon, so be it (RS 1.C)

There is nothing the umpire can do that would prevent a runner from retouching or the defense from making an appeal.

In REGULAR SP, yes, the ball is "dead" once a pitch hits the ground.

No, that would be only with SP without stealing.

Which is why a batter CANNOT hit a pitched ball once the ball hits the ground.
Got that, Sparky?

No, a batter cannot bat a pitched ball in SP once it hits ANYTHING other than the bat because the rule says he cannot.

[AtlUmpSteve]

Just to interject, so this doesn't become "he said, he said."

Nothing should be done differently when an appeal might be considered possible than when you don't see one; delaying calling time, or anything else done differently, could be considered as tipping off the defense that an appeal would be appropriate.

It has been some time since calling time stopped a runner from completing running responsibilities. If actively moving, of course don't call time (to stop a live ball appeal). Once time is called, we allow runners to complete anything they initiate before accepting an appeal. Sounds like if you waited, Steve, the runner would have done nothing; then you allow the appeal.

I just don't know what "regular SP" is, comprted to general slow pitch rules. In Mens' (the vast majority of SP in my universe), and now Womens' (but not Coed, Senior, or JO), runners can steal on pitches that hit the ground, so long as it passes the front plane of the plate, but don't hit the plate. That isn't dead; it's live by any definition that I know about.

Stevetheump; just an observation here. You claim a lot of experience, but you're the newbie here. You may well have a great deal to offer, with your experience, but your approach might be better received if you took a softer approach. Many here have a lot of experience, solid credentials, and have built credibility with other posters. Act like the newbie, build your rep, and you will earn credibility based on your postings, not because you demand it. Just like you have to earn it on the field.

Drop back, study us, see what we offer. Challenge what is gray, but give respect to those that have earned it when you may not fully see it that way. Some here not only have the experience, but serve on the rules committees, hold ASA (and other) positions in our states, have direct access to the rules makers and interpretors, and more. I'm not suggesting you can't interact; but your approach with some that have greater knowledge isn't helping your credibility.

JMO. Do as you will.

[AtlUmpSteve]

To add (had enough on my mind in the previous post):

Calling any ASA State UIC "Sparky", even if you were right in your position (and you were dead wrong in that case) would get you relegated to dogsh!t assignments without any future in most places. And, based on what you have posted, this is the State UIC in a neighboring state within the same Region, who has direct and personal access to your State UIC. Hardly sounds like a well thought out plan.

[Stevetheump]

Originally Posted by AtlUmpSteve

To add (had enough on my mind in the previous post):

Calling any ASA State UIC "Sparky", even if you were right in your position (and you were dead wrong in that case) would get you relegated to dogsh!t assignments without any future in most places. And, based on what you have posted, this is the State UIC in a neighboring state within the same Region, who has direct and personal access to your State UIC. Hardly sounds like a well thought out plan.

First of all, I did not realize the person in question was a state UIC. If he wants to "get back at me," have at it. I've done my share of "dogsh!t" assignments, so the "threat" of them is no threat to me.
Second, I HAVE NO DESIRE - OR NEED - TO ADVANCE. I'm happy with my career. I'm quite happy to STAY at the local level.
Lastly, I now realize this board is nothing more than a GOBN - Good Ol' Boy Network. Full of self-righteous & kiss-@SS "umpires."
So, with that, I take my leave of you.
BTW - like the font?

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by Stevetheump

First of all, I did not realize the person in question was a state UIC. If he wants to "get back at me," have at it. I've done my share of "dogsh!t" assignments, so the "threat" of them is no threat to me.
Second, I HAVE NO DESIRE - OR NEED - TO ADVANCE. I'm happy with my career. I'm quite happy to STAY at the local level.
Lastly, I now realize this board is nothing more than a GOBN - Good Ol' Boy Network. Full of self-righteous & kiss-@SS "umpires."
So, with that, I take my leave of you.
BTW - like the font?

SHEESH !!

So, with that, I take my leave of you.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by Stevetheump

First of all, I did not realize the person in question was a state UIC. If he wants to "get back at me," have at it. I've done my share of "dogsh!t" assignments, so the "threat" of them is no threat to me.

That is true, you don't know who I am and I wouldn't expect you to act in any other manner than as yourself.

Second, I HAVE NO DESIRE - OR NEED - TO ADVANCE. I'm happy with my career. I'm quite happy to STAY at the local level.

Nothing wrong with that, though it is nice when an umpire has a goal a little higher than present.

Lastly, I now realize this board is nothing more than a GOBN - Good Ol' Boy Network. Full of self-righteous & kiss-@SS "umpires."
So, with that, I take my leave of you.

Amazing how little you actually know about the folks on this board. If anything, we are each others toughest critics which is a common occurence among any group of sport officials. In the long run, it makes us all better officials.

[Andy]

Probably wasting my keystrokes.....

Steve - AtlUmpSteve gave you some good advice;

Originally Posted by AtlUmpSteve

Stevetheump; just an observation here. You claim a lot of experience, but you're the newbie here. You may well have a great deal to offer, with your experience, but your approach might be better received if you took a softer approach. Many here have a lot of experience, solid credentials, and have built credibility with other posters. Act like the newbie, build your rep, and you will earn credibility based on your postings, not because you demand it. Just like you have to earn it on the field.

Drop back, study us, see what we offer. Challenge what is gray, but give respect to those that have earned it when you may not fully see it that way. Some here not only have the experience, but serve on the rules committees, hold ASA (and other) positions in our states, have direct access to the rules makers and interpretors, and more. I'm not suggesting you can't interact; but your approach with some that have greater knowledge isn't helping your credibility.

When I enter a new group of people that I don't know or haven't met, I try to lay back a bit to get a feel for the group, who the strong personalities are, etc. Then I try to integrate myself to the group gently....much the same advice that Steve gave you.

Coming in like you did may give the wrong impression about you to the group. As Steve said...you may have a great deal of knowledge and experience to offer...give us a chance to get to know you. As it is now, your posting attitude and style has turned some people off and they probably won't even pay attention to your posts.....

If you decide to leave, oh well, nothing we can do about that...I hope you don't 'cause its always good to have more experience and knowledge around here. Just try to fit in...who knows, you might like it!

[argodad]

Originally Posted by Stevetheump

So, with that, I take my leave of you.
BTW - like the font?

Good riddance. And I'm glad I don't have to go on the field with you.

[celebur]

Originally Posted by Stevetheump

First of all, I did not realize the person in question was a state UIC.

That Mike is a state UIC is actually irrelevant. What matters is that he backs it up with articualte arguments backed by the rules. If you had bothered to observe more, you would have noticed that in time.

As for myself, the best thing I did around here was decide to post less and read more. But you didn't come here to read.

[AtlUmpSteve]

Originally Posted by celebur

That Mike is a state UIC is actually irrelevant. What matters is that he backs it up with articualte arguments backed by the rules. If you had bothered to observe more, you would have noticed that in time.

As for myself, the best thing I did around here was decide to post less and read more. But you didn't come here to read.

I mostly agree with that; what brought that on was the "Sparky" pejorative. That's past the point of a rules or mechanics discussion disagreement, it's also a point of disrespect to the position that person holds.

[ncaaumpdj]

im glad i just observe and dont get involved unless i feel my opinion will HELP...LOL See you in Colorado at fireworks steve?

DJ