Out of batter's box

Originally Posted by NCASAUmp

My initial reaction was, "oh cluck, I'm gonna HAVE to call this one...."

Is that cluck louder after you've had a chicken sandwich?

[NCASAUmp]

Without quoting everything Mike said.

Again, bear in mind that the last paragraph wasn't what "Fred" said, so those were not his words exactly. Those were my words meant to be taken only within the context in which they were framed: a batter whose foot is an inch outside of the box. Even with the lines, I'm not going to split that hair. How do I know the boxes are the right dimensions? How do I know they're straight? "Coach, in my judgment, the batter's foot was not out of the box when he contacted the ball."

I'll admit that I was not 100% taken with everything that "Fred" said about the reasons for not calling the batter for being out of the box on contact. I think it sets you up for problems with the defensive coach when everyone else seems to see the foot out of the box except for you. And once it starts with one coach or team, it spreads fast. You're absolutely correct: if you call it one way for one team and the other way for the other team, why are you even out there? "Call it both ways, Blue" may be an annoying thing to hear, but that is our goal out there.

The big takeaway from that conversation was not the reasons for not calling the batter out, but rather, the reasons for calling the batter out and how to sell them. Fred repeatedly made it clear that he had no problem with my call. What he had a problem with was how I sold the call: showing the crisp footprint that was clearly out of the box. While this is evidence that bolsters your argument with a coach, it does two things. It can come across as picking nits (ie., "looking for a call"), and it can be received badly by a coach who may think you're showing him up.

More specifically to the conversation, he tossed this out there: instead of it happening in the second inning, what if it happened in the bottom of the 7th to end the game? How do you sell that call to the coach who will definitely blow a gasket on that call, guaranteed? Do you tell the coach that his player violated a technicality and here's his foot? Or do you tell the coach that he violated a technicality, thus giving himself an advantage that he would not have had if he had stayed in the box? The former, while just as correct as the latter, is a pretty weak "textbook" argument that tells the coach that you know what the rules say, but not why they say it. The latter argument is the "why" portion of the rule.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by NCASAUmp

More specifically to the conversation, he tossed this out there: instead of it happening in the second inning, what if it happened in the bottom of the 7th to end the game? How do you sell that call to the coach who will definitely blow a gasket on that call, guaranteed? Do you tell the coach that his player violated a technicality and here's his foot? Or do you tell the coach that he violated a technicality, thus giving himself an advantage that he would not have had if he had stayed in the box? The former, while just as correct as the latter, is a pretty weak "textbook" argument that tells the coach that you know what the rules say, but not why they say it. The latter argument is the "why" portion of the rule.

You tell the coach the same thing as I stated before. If it is a strike in the second inning, is it a strike in the 7th if it may draw the ire of the coach? If it is an IP in the second inning, is it a strike in the 7th if it may draw the ire of the coach?

I don't give a damn if the coach is going to blow a gasket. Tell him to talk to the idiot that doesn't know where he is supposed to keep his feet.

How many times have you heard, "How can you make that call now?" or "How can you end a game on a call like that?" Amazing how these coaches/players never argue the call, but the fact that it was made.

So far all I have heard is concern about what the coach is going to think, how you are going to handle that coach, technicalities, who may get an advantage or be subject to a disadvantage, but I haven't heard much about officiating the game, just justification for what may or may not occur during the game.

Again, not suggesting you call every little nit under particular circumstances, but you call what you see as recommended by the association under which the game is being played and use some common sense.

[NCASAUmp]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

You tell the coach the same thing as I stated before. If it is a strike in the second inning, is it a strike in the 7th if it may draw the ire of the coach? If it is an IP in the second inning, is it a strike in the 7th if it may draw the ire of the coach?

I don't give a damn if the coach is going to blow a gasket. Tell him to talk to the idiot that doesn't know where he is supposed to keep his feet.

How many times have you heard, "How can you make that call now?" or "How can you end a game on a call like that?" Amazing how these coaches/players never argue the call, but the fact that it was made.

So far all I have heard is concern about what the coach is going to think, how you are going to handle that coach, technicalities, who may get an advantage or be subject to a disadvantage, but I haven't heard much about officiating the game, just justification for what may or may not occur during the game.

Again, not suggesting you call every little nit under particular circumstances, but you call what you see as recommended by the association under which the game is being played and use some common sense.

Mike, I'm not saying we should be overly concerned with what the coach thinks. The coach has his/her job, and we have ours. However, when you're explaining a rule or a call to a coach, we need to use arguments that have some teeth to them. Simply shrugging and saying, "well, that's just the rule coach," has very little teeth. Fred's explanation goes into the "why" aspect of the rules, which is what we should all be learning anyway. Again, he wasn't disputing my call, he was disputing the method with which I, and many others have, explained that call. Pointing to a foot in the ground has no teeth. Telling a coach that you saw the batter out of the box on contact and telling the coach that his batter can't be allowed to gain an advantage that way does have more teeth.

To me, this valuable lesson was that of game management via solid rule interpretations and explanations, and I think we're straying from that lesson a little too much.

And yes, I would make that call in the bottom of the 7th. You're talking to an umpire who has called interference to end a semi-final game. Twice.

[wadeintothem]

Heres my new philosophy angle I've been working on thanks to another umpire.

"Coach, this umpire doesn't make calls. That happened, I just pointed it out."



To me, there is an epiphany there.

That doesnt mean OOO by any stretch, because that I hate - but there is a line that runs down OOO and the exact reason they pay us to be out there.

Yep sometimes you gotta take appropriate directed heat because --it happens.

[CecilOne]

Not necessarily in this topic, but in general, I disagree with:
- calls/no-calls because of what anyone thinks/reacts
- calls/no-calls because of the point in the game or score
- advantage/disadvantage is softball, except FR & MS, game management necessity
- OOO

[Dakota]

Anyone who umpires fastpitch at a variety of levels uses advantage/disadvantage; if you did not, some of those lower level games would become officiating, not playing.

However, no matter the level, I would never utter those words in an explanation to a coach. Doesn't mean I would lie (e.g. "Didn't see it, coach."); but I would not tell him I agree it was illegal but did not call it because there was no advantage.

If I am not calling something due to the level of play (classic example: ticky-tack pitching mechanics errors such as double touching where there is no batter or runner deceit), I'm straight up with the rationale... "I've talked with the other coach about it, coach, and I'm not calling that at this level of play. It is something they need to work on in practice." But, 99.9% of the time, both coaches also recognize this and never bring the infractions up.

Of course, all of that goes away in champioinship play, regardless of the level of play.

The foot out of the batter's box is hard to see, and since it is a timing infraction, forensic evidence (e.g. footprints) are of no help at all. No one is arguing whether the batter stepped out of the box - of course she did - the issue is was it before contact or not? That is a much sounder basis than advantage/disadvantage for not getting overly technical or ticky-tack in making this call.

[NCASAUmp]

Originally Posted by Ref Ump Welsch

Is that cluck louder after you've had a chicken sandwich?

Probably, since the offensive coach was about to lay an egg after that call.