Out of batter's box

[CCassistcoach]

It looks like different rule for different organizations, but wanted more information. Can't understand why this rule would be different between organizations. Here is question...

Batter/slapper's "wheel" foot steps in front of home plate (field has not been re-lined and lines non-existent) and slaps ball foul.
Is batter out?
What I have found...
USFA says batter out only if ball hit in fair territory. NSA unclear. USSSA says batter out fair or foul (but if lines are not evident, benefit of doubt should go to batter). ASA-can't find rule.

Thanks for responses.

[RKBUmp]

The batter is out,

7-6-D When an entire foot is touching the ground completely outside the lines of the batter's box at the time the ball makes contact with the bat.

[NCASAUmp]

Originally Posted by RKBUmp

The batter is out,

7-6-D When an entire foot is touching the ground completely outside the lines of the batter's box at the time the ball makes contact with the bat.

For clarification, that's the ASA rule that RKBUmp is giving. Please note that it does not specify whether the ball was hit fair or foul. As such, it does not matter whether the ball was hit fair or foul.

[argodad]

Originally Posted by RKBUmp

The batter is out,

7-6-D When an entire foot is touching the ground completely outside the lines of the batter's box at the time the ball makes contact with the bat.

And it does not matter that the chalk lines aren't there. The batter's box is still there, it's still the same size, and the umpire has a pretty good idea of where the line would be if it were lined properly.

And the same rule applies for NFHS and NCAA. Batter is out.

[NCASAUmp]

Originally Posted by argodad

And it does not matter that the chalk lines aren't there. The batter's box is still there, it's still the same size, and the umpire has a pretty good idea of where the line would be if it were lined properly.

And the same rule applies for NFHS and NCAA. Batter is out.

Is it also a dead ball in NFHS and NCAA? The ball would be dead in ASA...

Originally Posted by NCASAUmp

Is it also a dead ball in NFHS and NCAA? The ball would be dead in ASA...

It's a dead ball in USSSA, at least in the slow-pitch game. Called this so many times this year I feel like it's become a trademark for me.

[Dakota]

NSA is not unclear. NSA Rule 7-1-a

The batter shall not have his entire foot touching the ground completely outside the lines of the batter's box or touching home plate when the ball is hit.

EFFECT: Sec. 1 (a-b) The ball is dead, the batter is out, baserunners may not advance.

Batter is out, regardless of where the batted ball ends up, since the ball is dead when hit.

This leaves UFSA as the only odd man out. Imagine my surprise.

[NCASAUmp]

Originally Posted by Ref Ump Welsch

It's a dead ball in USSSA, at least in the slow-pitch game. Called this so many times this year I feel like it's become a trademark for me.

After I made this call only one time in my last tourney, I got a 15-minute lecture from the AUIC on how to make this call.

[NCASAUmp]

Originally Posted by Dakota

NSA is not unclear. NSA Rule 7-1-aBatter is out, regardless of where the batted ball ends up, since the ball is dead when hit.

This leaves UFSA as the only odd man out. Imagine my surprise.

What about YSISF? They cut off your hands.

[Skahtboi]

Originally Posted by NCASAUmp

Is it also a dead ball in NFHS and NCAA? The ball would be dead in ASA...

Yes

[CecilOne]

Same rule in PONY, dead ball, fair or foul.

Just for emphasis in all rule sets - boxes, boundaries, lanes, etc. are always there; visible lines or not.

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by NCASAUmp

After I made this call only one time in my last tourney, I got a 15-minute lecture from the AUIC on how to make this call.

Are you going to explain or should we just assume you kicked the batter and yelled "no such rule in USFA"?

[NCASAUmp]

Originally Posted by CecilOne

Are you going to explain or should we just assume you kicked the batter and yelled "no such rule in USFA"?

Actually, I'll be honest. My initial (and also hidden) reaction was, "what the hell, man? It was a good call, and you're busting my nuts for it?"

However, he had some great points that made me take a step back to look at things from a different perspective. Yes, the batter's foot was clearly out of the box when he made contact. The AUIC (whom I will call "Fred," obviously not his real name) did not dispute that, and he said that from that aspect, I'm correct. However, his question to me was: why is that wrong?

We've all seen (and probably done) it: the umpire calls the batter out, coach comes to talk to the umpire, and the umpire points to the clear footprint left in the dirt. And yet, despite that, the coach continues to argue his player's case. What can an umpire do to avoid this?

"Fred" said to me, "it's not an issue of whether or not he was out of the box, but whether the batter gained an advantage by doing so." Does stepping out of the box necessarily give the batter an advantage? Not always, and Fred's message was that when it doesn't give the batter an advantage, maybe we shouldn't try to split hairs so much.

However, stepping out of the box often does give the batter certain advantages, such as pulling the ball harder down the line (by stepping back) or hitting an otherwise unhittable pitch (by stepping across). It's during these times, Fred contends, that the call should be made. Otherwise, you're simply splitting hairs, calling a call that really has minimal bearing on the game. And when you're picking boogers like that, we all know where that can land you.

Making these calls is something that every umpire must evaluate when setting foot on the field, and we do it every day. In our Tuesday night rec leagues, do we make everyone wear proper uniforms? Do we make them all turn their hats forward? In 10U, do we call every single illegal pitch when the pitcher gained no advantage? By the letter of the rule, shouldn't we be making these calls? Why aren't we?

Simple. No advantage gained, nothing lost, no call.

And now, how does this help us with a offensive coach whose batter just got called out? Simple. "Coach, the batter stepped out of the box and hit a pitch that would have been otherwise unhittable. In my judgment, he gained an unfair advantage by doing so, and we can't allow that to happen." You're telling the coach you're not out to pick nits, but rather to keep things on an even keel. Isn't that what we're supposed to be doing in the first place?

I hope that I've done justice to the 15-minute conversation that "Fred" and I had that day.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by NCASAUmp

What about YSISF? They cut off your hands.

Lousy, stinking INFIDELS!!!

Dave, without copying and pasting your entire response, I wanted to respond to your lengthy, yet well-pointed discussion. Your AUIC makes a very good point with the advantage/disadvantage argument. That's something we use, not just in softball, but in other sports as well, football and basketball being my other sports. Of course, basketball is the big one on advantage/disadvantage. However, your AUIC probably is forgetting that sometimes you have to throw out that advantage/disadvantage thing when there's been a clear violation that cannot be ignored. An example would be the batter stepping out of the box so obviously the catcher saw it. If the catcher sees it, we really can't avoid calling it because then the defensive coach will be all over our case on it. That's why I don't call ALL of the stepping out of the box stuff. Earlier, it was noted in USSSA, the benefit of the doubt goes to the batter. I've used that to my advantage, and it works. It also depends on the level of play, travel team boys vs. the recreational beer league boys.

I'm not dissing advantage/disadvantage (used it big time in a freshmen football game the other morning, and pissed off an assistant coach so bad I had the head coach rein him in). There's a time and place where you have to throw out that advantage/disadvantage practice when obvious has happened, and going with that philosophy can burn you and create a cluster f**k later.