NCAA vs. ASA Mechanics

[bestviewofall]

Steve,

Very valid points, since I found a new cold one, I shall respond if I can...

As an NCAA umpire, I also see times that the NCAA mchanics are better; they allow more adjustment to specific game situations. There are times that working outside is better (and certainly easier); but mandating "outside" is no better than mandating "inside".

I think that the NCAA idea of "working outside" has been misrepresented. Yes, this is the terminology used, but I prefer to think of the philosophy a little differently. Be Where You Need To Be To See What You Need To See. Simply put, if you do not have a play emerging RIGHT NOW (i.e. runner and a ball heading to the base RIGHT NOW), find someplace, ANYPLACE, that allows you to see the ball and the runner (and the possible obstruction) at the same time. Sometimes that is outside, sometime it is inside. Do not move somewhere that does not allow you to loose sight of one of the components. If you can stay put and see all the elements and still get to a calling position before the point in time you need to....stay put. Working NCAA does not mean "staying outside", it just allows a little more flexibilty in judging where the best possible position could be.

The working between pitches and secondary positioning has made me a better umpire, no matter which game I am working.

You and several thousands of us.

I am not comfortable with the calling distances overall, I feel like I am smothering the plays, and losing the perspective that is better from a wider angle view. Frankly, I believe I have missed more calls, both tag plays and force outs, working at the NCAA distances. I may have seen just a few tag plays better; I have overall felt like I missed more.

I am not disagreeing with you in the slightest. But, when we moved the calling distance in, it gave me (a moving official) the ability to make minute adjusts as the play developed to see things up close and personal that I never saw before while standing back 10 feet away. The perspective back there is nice, but the ability to change angles on the dime is nonexistent.

The other issue I have is a specific game situation; three umpire system, single runner on first. I do not agree that U3 should have a primary tag play distance and then work back out for force plays; it is so much more effective to start at force play distance and step up to the tag play. I have done some research, and reject the notion that there are more tag plays (steal, passed ball, and wild pitch) than force plays; it is NOT the predominant play. It certainly is easier to step up than back up; every other sport and mechanic tells you that. There is more time to read the steal/PB/WP and step up, than there is to read a batted ball, judge that it will be fielded, then react to the perfect angle as well as back out at the same time.

A great idea. We should think about that more often. For those of you who have worked with me, you know that I am always at the backside of the allowed distance, because I like to move into the play (see above). You're right, it is also very awkward backing up for a play. The only key here is that obtaining a proper angle on the force play is much easier (3-4 steps to get a 90 degree angle to the throw from 3rd) closer up than it is farther away (6-???? steps) to get the same angle.

With those exceptions, I prefer the NCAA differences that Rachel points out. Although I use a traditional ASA stance, I understand that various plate stances work better for others. Just one nit to pick with that; the NCAA manual says when using the scissors, the head (eyes) should be at the top of the zone (GREAT; I agree). But, when using the traditional heel-toe ASA stance, the head should be higher than the catcher's head. To me, that never made sense; if setting the eyes at the top of the zone is more consistent (and of course it is!!), then you would no more be affected by the catcher's head when working the slot in one stance versus the other. Telling us we have the option of multiple stances, and the option to use what works best for us, then pigeon-holing specifics for evaluators to use as negatives is counterproductive, IMO. Rarely do you hear "it isn't what's in the manual, but it works good for you, so keep using it".

Just my few points of contention; otherwise, prefer NCAA mechanics for my use; just not sure the masses are ready to get the options to adjust.

The point of the suggested stances should only be to give umpires ideas as to what they can do to allow them to call a better game. Yes, there are things that you would rather not see the umpires do, but frankly, if an umpire balanced herself on her left pinky and held an umbrella in here right toe while calling a perfect strike zone, would we care???? Or rather should we care? I tink not. Just be strong and right. I have never came done on an umpire who was unoothodox but looked strong, looked comfortable and was accurate.

I'm not sure what mechanics I used on a daily basis. Some things I learned in AFA, some things from ASA, some grand allowances I read in NCAA, a lot of tricks I learned from talking with and watching MLB umpires (you should hear there philosophies). I think our job is simple. Be in place. Be right. Look strong and believable. No organization should have problems with that.

But, then again, I am not and evaluator and I only have 13 beers left.

Smokey

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by bestviewofall

I think that the NCAA idea of "working outside" has been misrepresented. Yes, this is the terminology used, but I prefer to think of the philosophy a little differently. Be Where You Need To Be To See What You Need To See. Simply put, if you do not have a play emerging RIGHT NOW (i.e. runner and a ball heading to the base RIGHT NOW), find someplace, ANYPLACE, that allows you to see the ball and the runner (and the possible obstruction) at the same time. Sometimes that is outside, sometime it is inside. Do not move somewhere that does not allow you to loose sight of one of the components. If you can stay put and see all the elements and still get to a calling position before the point in time you need to....stay put. Working NCAA does not mean "staying outside", it just allows a little more flexibilty in judging where the best possible position could be.

I agree it is misrepresented, but also in another manner as you suggest. The selling point has been keeping the elements in view. Not possible. Isn't going to happen no matter what mechanics a working umpire is using. A spectating umpire, sure, s/he can to this, but will never be in a proper position to make a call.

I am not of the belief seeing the ball is as important as seeing the runners and defenders and observing their actions. Knowing where the ball is at any time is important, but that doesn't mean it is necessary to see it rolling to the gap, bouncing off the fence and watching some OF stab at it.

The point of the suggested stances should only be to give umpires ideas as to what they can do to allow them to call a better game. Yes, there are things that you would rather not see the umpires do, but frankly, if an umpire balanced herself on her left pinky and held an umbrella in here right toe while calling a perfect strike zone, would we care???? Or rather should we care? I tink not. Just be strong and right. I have never came done on an umpire who was unoothodox but looked strong, looked comfortable and was accurate.

I'm not sure what mechanics I used on a daily basis. Some things I learned in AFA, some things from ASA, some grand allowances I read in NCAA, a lot of tricks I learned from talking with and watching MLB umpires (you should hear there philosophies). I think our job is simple. Be in place. Be right. Look strong and believable. No organization should have problems with that.

Once had an umpire set up in the RHB slot six feet behind the catcher......for every batter regardless of batter's box being used. Pretty unorthodox. And there was no way this umpire was seeing the right half of the plate let alone the outside corner. However, there was little argument with his calls from the teams or my Asst. UIC or myself. I asked him if anyone ever suggested he move a little closer. He said no. I asked if anyone ever told him to move to the other side when there was a LHB. He said no. And this was at a national!

Unlike the NCAA who inherits previously trained and proven umpires, the other assocations are not always that lucky and often, must train umpires from scratch.

When we train them, it isn't for the routine calls. If every players fielded every ball cleanly and always threw it to the right base in a straight and efficient manner or just made the right play at the right base every time, a blind monkey could do our job. The mechanics taught at the beginning are designed to put the umpire in the best possible starting position to get the necessary perspective for the most common plays. What many umpires do not get right away is that mastering these simple and routine mechanics will also prepare them and put them in a preferred starting position for the goofy, strange or tough plays, or misplays as it may seem.

Yes, sometimes it is boring and may not deserve the same effort. However, umpires get paid for making the tough calls, the bangers, the near impossible to dissect in real time plays. And that is where the real evaluations take place.

Yes, I have worked the "rim" and, in some cases, loved it, but only with a 3- or 4-umpire system. What I have seen in my area are some local HS associations making this their primary set of mechanics for their 2-umpire system. Not good.

But, then again, I am not and evaluator and I only have 13 beers left.

Smokey

You still have 13 left? And here I thought you were a beer drinker.

[luvthegame]

IMO opinion there are instances where working outside...being able to adjust...is beneficial even in 2 person..just not as frequent as one might find in 3-4 person.

I like the ability to watch what is going on with the ball and glancing the runners-fielders (fielders and runners usually react to what is going on with the ball). The information can be extremely useful in determining next movement. How far the ball may travel, which fielder is going to pick it up, what direction that fielder may be moving when they get to the ball, who the cutoff will be, how strong the relay throw might be and other information (like being able to see my partners and what they are doing) are all effectively observed without having to turn a back to any pertinent info. The key IMO, is that umpires understand what to look for when, and then proceeding to the area they need to get to in a timely manner. This can usually be done best when using the most amount of information available.

I think it's cool in watching games on TV how many umpires have been able to utilize these concepts, especially over the past 3-4 years.

[azbigdawg]

Originally Posted by luvthegame

IMO opinion there are instances where working outside...being able to adjust...is beneficial even in 2 person..just not as frequent as one might find in 3-4 person.

I like the ability to watch what is going on with the ball and glancing the runners-fielders (fielders and runners usually react to what is going on with the ball). The information can be extremely useful in determining next movement. How far the ball may travel, which fielder is going to pick it up, what direction that fielder may be moving when they get to the ball, who the cutoff will be, how strong the relay throw might be and other information (like being able to see my partners and what they are doing) are all effectively observed without having to turn a back to any pertinent info. The key IMO, is that umpires understand what to look for when, and then proceeding to the area they need to get to in a timely manner. This can usually be done best when using the most amount of information available.

I think it's cool in watching games on TV how many umpires have been able to utilize these concepts, especially over the past 3-4 years.

Funny....I can handle most of the bolded part with one look at the ball as Im going inside... the players tell me everything else..

I saw WAY too many newer and lazy umpires misuse staying out side in the last couple of years.... ESPECIALLY in two man.

[luvthegame]

Originally Posted by azbigdawg

Funny....I can handle most of the bolded part with one look at the ball as Im going inside... the players tell me everything else..

I saw WAY too many newer and lazy umpires misuse staying out side in the last couple of years.... ESPECIALLY in two man.

Which parts can't ya handle?

[bestviewofall]

I saw WAY too many newer and lazy umpires misuse staying out side in the last couple of years.... ESPECIALLY in two man.

True, far too many umpires look at this as an opportunity to be lazy. Not a good route to take at all.

Or maybe they are afraid of using ASA-established mechanics on a non-ASA game? Maybe they are afraid of taking their ASA-training elsewhere and getting in trouble for it?

Funny....I can handle most of the bolded part with one look at the ball as Im going inside... the players tell me everything else..

I wish that I could do that. I still can't figure out how to tell which is the best possible angle on a play without seeing every element of the play develop from A to Z. Good for you.

Smokey

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by luvthegame

IMO opinion there are instances where working outside...being able to adjust...is beneficial even in 2 person..just not as frequent as one might find in 3-4 person.

I like the ability to watch what is going on with the ball and glancing the runners-fielders (fielders and runners usually react to what is going on with the ball). The information can be extremely useful in determining next movement. How far the ball may travel, which fielder is going to pick it up, what direction that fielder may be moving when they get to the ball, who the cutoff will be, how strong the relay throw might be and other information (like being able to see my partners and what they are doing) are all effectively observed without having to turn a back to any pertinent info. The key IMO, is that umpires understand what to look for when, and then proceeding to the area they need to get to in a timely manner. This can usually be done best when using the most amount of information available.

I agree with your key, but AFAIC, you don't need to keep your eye on the ball when it isn't necessary, overrated and, as previously noted, impossible to do. Turning my back to the ball is no big deal, never has been.

[bestviewofall]

I agree it is misrepresented, but also in another manner as you suggest. The selling point has been keeping the elements in view. Not possible. Isn't going to happen no matter what mechanics a working umpire is using. A spectating umpire, sure, s/he can to this, but will never be in a proper position to make a call.

I disagree. With knowledge of the potential plays ahead, along with the knowledge of what routes need to be used to get to those plays (easily), an umpire can see all of the elements at the same time and be well ahead of the play with little effort.

I am not of the belief seeing the ball is as important as seeing the runners and defenders and observing their actions. Knowing where the ball is at any time is important, but that doesn't mean it is necessary to see it rolling to the gap, bouncing off the fence and watching some OF stab at it.

I cannot put any importance on any one element. Without getting specific, I believe that seeing the whole field at the same time allows me the latitude to make informed decisions as the play develops. I don't rely on any person (defense or offense) to solely tell me where to go or more importantly, where I don't need to go.

Once had an umpire set up in the RHB slot six feet behind the catcher......for every batter regardless of batter's box being used. Pretty unorthodox. And there was no way this umpire was seeing the right half of the plate let alone the outside corner. However, there was little argument with his calls from the teams or my Asst. UIC or myself. I asked him if anyone ever suggested he move a little closer. He said no. I asked if anyone ever told him to move to the other side when there was a LHB. He said no. And this was at a national!

Is this a comment on the ASA training and advancement of umpires in the ASA ranks? Be careful, many of us believe that ASA does a fantastic job of training officials and choosing those who are qualified to work at the national level.

BTW, how is Dudley these days?

Yes, I have worked the "rim" and, in some cases, loved it, but only with a 3- or 4-umpire system. What I have seen in my area are some local HS associations making this their primary set of mechanics for their 2-umpire system. Not good.

Yes, ABSOLUTELY, staying outside can be hazardous to one's officiating if done at the improper times. At the two-person games, it should be used only at particular situations, and only if both umpires understand the system.

You still have 13 left? And here I thought you were a beer drinker.

Yep, I ran low. No worries, I got another 36-pack on the way home tonight. BTW, what I do to beer can't really be considered drinking...

Smokey
Still learnin'

[luvthegame]

WOW!!! Kinda makes sense!!

Kinda....

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by bestviewofall

I disagree. With knowledge of the potential plays ahead, along with the knowledge of what routes need to be used to get to those plays (easily), an umpire can see all of the elements at the same time and be well ahead of the play with little effort.

Again, not possible. Think about it. A BU coming off the line at 1B is not going to be able to see a ball in the outfield and a BR approaching 1B or the base, at the same time without standing in foul territory. If the BU is standing in foul territory, s/he will never be in position to make a call at 2B should that BR continue. Even the guy with in the blue tights and red cape isn't going to get there.

My argument isn't with the particular mechanic, but the selling point that you noted above. Don't tell me that coming inside makes me more susceptible to missing part of the play, as it does not.

I cannot put any importance on any one element. Without getting specific, I believe that seeing the whole field at the same time allows me the latitude to make informed decisions as the play develops. I don't rely on any person (defense or offense) to solely tell me where to go or more importantly, where I don't need to go.

And if that works for you, great. However, I would still like to know how you can see a BR in foul territory and a ball at the fence in center field at the same time. The only people I know that had eyes in the back of their head were my parents and teachers and I don't believe you are either.

It isn't just one person, but everyone which will clue you in, but you know that. People act like coming inside means you don't see the play develop and that just isn't so. As Darrell noted, while coming inside, you can observe where the ball is going, the fielders in the vicinity, the fielder most likely to get the ball and make a throw. Even listening to the coach's direction to the runner may help.

Though not often included in standard training, we work between pitches. All information is helpful. Always peek at the OF between pitches; listen to the chatter & direction to players; find out who is covering a base; and constantly am adjusting my position based upon fielder movement, batter's abilities and situation. But this is something that we all do to some level.

Is this a comment on the ASA training and advancement of umpires in the ASA ranks? Be careful, many of us believe that ASA does a fantastic job of training officials and choosing those who are qualified to work at the national level.

Actually, he worked HS ball in the area. Don't know who trained him, but have a feeling I was sent a few umpires who never went to a school.

Smokey
Still learnin'

We all are. Any umpire who thinks they know everything there is and never learns anything isn't going to be a good umpire for long. After all, isn't that what most of these discussions are about?