How would you rule this obstruction call?

[MountieSB]

B1 hits a ball into RF gap, rounds the 1B bag and collides with F3 who is standing in the baseline. Base umpire appropriately signals for obstruction and allows play to continue. B1 falls as a result of the collision with F3, but gets up, noticeably limping, and slides into second base. As ball comes in from F9, F4 bobbles ball and B1 sees the bobble, starts off 2B toward 3B and falls about 10' from 2B while trying to change direction to get back to 2B. F4 throws to F6 and tags B1 before she gets back to 2B. There is no question that B1 was tagged by F6. B1 never got back to 2B - she was laying on her stomach two feet from the bag and never touched 2B the second time. Base umpire rules B1 safe because of the obstruction call between 1B & 2B.

Here is my question: How long does B1 get protection for the obstruction? I would have called obstruction to get B1 to second base initially, but the runner is then on her own after achieving 2B. When she made the turn from 2B to 3B, and then was tagged out trying to get back to 2B, she should be out, correct?

When I asked the BU why he ruled her safe, he said that the reason she didn't make it back to the bag was because of the injury (noticeable limping) that occurred due to the collision with F3. In his judgement, he was going to protect her beyond 2B because of the injury. I hypothesized that she could have just gotten up and walked all the way home using that reasoning without fear of being called out. He said this is just his judgement. I asked for a rule that stipulated that, and he kept saying it was a judgement call. Am I wrong in assuming that she is only protected to the next base (in this instance, because there was no chance she could reasonably made third, even without the collision)? Thanks in advance for your expertise.

[wadeintothem]

sounds like one of those plays:
-you gotta see
-youre gonna get yelled at no matter what.

You protect to the base she would have reached had there been no OBS (not no injury).

If thats judged by the ump to be 3B fine.
If its 2B, thats fine too.

I probably got an out. If you come off 2B injured, its on you. I'll have no mercy on you simply because you got a little hurt, but maybe thats the old football trainer in me.

[Skahtboi]

Originally Posted by MountieSB

Here is my question: How long does B1 get protection for the obstruction?

She is protected as far as she would have reached had the OBS not occurred. Strictly umpire judgment, but the judgment should be rendered at the time of the OBS.

Originally Posted by MountieSB

When she made the turn from 2B to 3B, and then was tagged out trying to get back to 2B, she should be out, correct?

Strictly judgment.

Originally Posted by MountieSB

Am I wrong in assuming that she is only protected to the next base (in this instance, because there was no chance she could reasonably made third, even without the collision)?

See previous answer.

All of that being said, from the way you describe it, I would probably lean toward an out, as you and Wade have stated, but that is going strictly by your description. I can see where, considering the collision was bad enough to cause injury, the BU could have interpreted that she would have made 3 at the time of the OBS as well, though.

[Steve M]

WTF is beyond 2B, unless it's 3B.
There's no basis in the rules to put the runner back on 2B after going beyond 2B and getting tagged out - unless BU has her protected to 3B. If that's the case, you've got a dead ball when she's tagged out and she is awarded 3B.

In your play, like Wade & Scott, I've most likely got an out. Again, that's based on your description.

[steveshane67]

Originally Posted by wadeintothem

sounds like one of those plays:
-you gotta see
-youre gonna get yelled at no matter what.

You protect to the base she would have reached had there been no OBS (not no injury).

If thats judged by the ump to be 3B fine.
If its 2B, thats fine too.

I probably got an out. If you come off 2B injured, its on you. I'll have no mercy on you simply because you got a little hurt, but maybe thats the old football trainer in me.

I have a follow up question.

So the umps are supposed to protect the runner to the base they would have reached had there been no OBS.

What defines "would have reached?" Lets take an extreme extreme scenario, BR hits a ball down RF line, BR tries to stretch it into a double, collides with 1B and hurts knee, can stand up. RF, while running towards the line to cut the ball off, tears their achilles and is laying on the ground in pain. The rest of the fielders attend to their hurt teammate and dont pick up the ball. What do you award the runner? Would it be home bc the defense never picked the ball up (albeit they probably would have if they saw a runner running) and the runner could have easily scored if not for the knee injury?

[NCASAUmp]

Originally Posted by steveshane67

What defines "would have reached?"

In short, the umpire defines it. It is up to the judgment of the umpire, and the umpire, alone. Nothing more, nothing less.

As for your ridiculous scenario of mass carnage, that's just a whole bunch of silliness that isn't worth my time. Go get a rulebook and read rule #10-4-G.

[Steve M]

Originally Posted by steveshane67

I have a follow up question.

So the umps are supposed to protect the runner to the base they would have reached had there been no OBS.

What defines "would have reached?" Lets take an extreme extreme scenario, BR hits a ball down RF line, BR tries to stretch it into a double, collides with 1B and hurts knee, can stand up. RF, while running towards the line to cut the ball off, tears their achilles and is laying on the ground in pain. The rest of the fielders attend to their hurt teammate and dont pick up the ball. What do you award the runner? Would it be home bc the defense never picked the ball up (albeit they probably would have if they saw a runner running) and the runner could have easily scored if not for the knee injury?

See Scott's answer - the sentence on protection. Then, reconsider whether you want to ask that question.

[MountieSB]

Thanks for your responses. It sounds like I wasn't off base for questioning the call. My only concern was that he used the words "in my judgement" well after the play was over. It was as if he realized he wasn't quite sure what to do, and then rationalized the decision later. We have all had moments where we have a brain cramp on a ruling (God knows I have!), and this could have been one of those situations. He's a good umpire. I just wished we could have talked about it before he ruled so firmly.

[reccer]

Originally Posted by steveshane67

So the umps are supposed to protect the runner to the base they would have reached had there been no OBS.

Coach here. Your judgment of where to place the runner should also be influenced by your knowledge (if any) of the respective players and the game situation.

For ex, if the outfield is playing shallow and the co-rec right fielder is playing because of her post game entertainment value as opposed to any discernible athletic acumen and the batter-runner is fast maybe grant home.

Or, with 2 outs fast runner on second and grounder to outfield grant home. As a player, you know with 2 outs he/she is running on contact and will be sent home. Don't reward the defense because they were in the way. If you only protect to third, there is no penalty on the defense to obstruct.

[Skahtboi]

Originally Posted by reccer

Coach here. Your judgment of where to place the runner should also be influenced by your knowledge (if any) of the respective players and the game situation.

Not being a rule writer, I cannot answer this definitively, but, I am sure that is part of the reason why the rule is worded as it is. The umpire must protect the runner to the base he/she would have received, in his judgment, had the OBS not occurred. This allows the umpire to take in such considerations have you have mentioned. However, as I stated earlier (and will restate now for steveshane67), this determination must be made at the time of the OBS.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by reccer

Or, with 2 outs fast runner on second and grounder to outfield grant home. As a player, you know with 2 outs he/she is running on contact and will be sent home. Don't reward the defense because they were in the way. If you only protect to third, there is no penalty on the defense to obstruct.

Obstruction is not a reward/penalty rule.

The umpires judgment involves the point that the runner was obstructed and the base they would have reached had the obstruction not occurred only. It is not based upon "what should I do to penalize the defense?" Anyone who asked themself that question doesn't understand the rule or is umpiring for the wrong reason.

And the term "in my judgment" is not a catch-all phrase giving the umpire Carte Blanche to circumvent the given rule.

[Dakota]

Originally Posted by MountieSB

B1 hits a ball into RF gap, rounds the 1B bag and collides with F3 who is standing in the baseline. Base umpire appropriately signals for obstruction and allows play to continue. B1 falls as a result of the collision with F3, but gets up, noticeably limping, and slides into second base. As ball comes in from F9, F4 bobbles ball and B1 sees the bobble, starts off 2B toward 3B and falls about 10' from 2B while trying to change direction to get back to 2B. F4 throws to F6 and tags B1 before she gets back to 2B. There is no question that B1 was tagged by F6. B1 never got back to 2B - she was laying on her stomach two feet from the bag and never touched 2B the second time. Base umpire rules B1 safe because of the obstruction call between 1B & 2B.

Here is my question: How long does B1 get protection for the obstruction? I would have called obstruction to get B1 to second base initially, but the runner is then on her own after achieving 2B. When she made the turn from 2B to 3B, and then was tagged out trying to get back to 2B, she should be out, correct?

When I asked the BU why he ruled her safe, he said that the reason she didn't make it back to the bag was because of the injury (noticeable limping) that occurred due to the collision with F3. In his judgement, he was going to protect her beyond 2B because of the injury. I hypothesized that she could have just gotten up and walked all the way home using that reasoning without fear of being called out. He said this is just his judgement. I asked for a rule that stipulated that, and he kept saying it was a judgement call. Am I wrong in assuming that she is only protected to the next base (in this instance, because there was no chance she could reasonably made third, even without the collision)? Thanks in advance for your expertise.

By rule, there should have been one of 2 outcomes of this play, depending on the umpire's judgment. The runners is either out or awarded 3B. There is no rules support for placing her back on 2B, and the umpire using the phrase "in my judgment" does not change that.

[NCASAUmp]

Originally Posted by MountieSB

Thanks for your responses. It sounds like I wasn't off base for questioning the call. My only concern was that he used the words "in my judgement" well after the play was over. It was as if he realized he wasn't quite sure what to do, and then rationalized the decision later. We have all had moments where we have a brain cramp on a ruling (God knows I have!), and this could have been one of those situations. He's a good umpire. I just wished we could have talked about it before he ruled so firmly.

But coach, the award from an obstruction call IS a judgment call. Of course he's going to be firm, because regardless of how you might feel about it, it's his judgment that determines the call. Just like the strike zone, safe/out, etc., an obstruction award is his judgment. He's not rationalizing anything. Why does there need to be a conversation on his judgment, coach?

The only sticking point I have is that he says he had her protected to 3B, so I'm curious to know why he didn't award 3B. If he had her protected to 2B instead, then yes, she would have been out for attempting to advance beyond the base to which she was protected. Yet if he had her protected to 3B, then she should have been awarded 3B.

[steveshane67]

Originally Posted by NCASAUmp

In short, the umpire defines it. It is up to the judgment of the umpire, and the umpire, alone. Nothing more, nothing less.

As for your ridiculous scenario of mass carnage, that's just a whole bunch of silliness that isn't worth my time. Go get a rulebook and read rule #10-4-G.

Got me, in my quest to ask, as stated, an extreme extreme scenario, I overlooked the injury rule.

Let me try this again with a more mundane example. 0 outs, LHB, OF shifts to pull, batter hits a little duck snort to LF, the BR is thinking double all the way, the LF sprints over, cuts the ball off, and when throwing to second, airmails it, and the ball rolls all the way to the fence. The runner runs into the 1B, maybe tweaks a hammy or rolls an ankle and stumbles into 2B and stays on 2B, not wanting to risk anything going for 3rd with 0 outs. But since the ball rolled all the way to the fence along the 1st base line, and the 1B was not properly backing up the play (ie had to chase down the ball), would you award the BR 3B since a "healthy" un OBS'ed runner would have made it there?

[NCASAUmp]

Originally Posted by steveshane67

Got me, in my quest to ask, as stated, an extreme extreme scenario, I overlooked the injury rule.

Let me try this again with a more mundane example. 0 outs, LHB, OF shifts to pull, batter hits a little duck snort to LF, the BR is thinking double all the way, the LF sprints over, cuts the ball off, and when throwing to second, airmails it, and the ball rolls all the way to the fence. The runner runs into the 1B, maybe tweaks a hammy or rolls an ankle and stumbles into 2B and stays on 2B, not wanting to risk anything going for 3rd with 0 outs. But since the ball rolled all the way to the fence along the 1st base line, and the 1B was not properly backing up the play (ie had to chase down the ball), would you award the BR 3B since a "healthy" un OBS'ed runner would have made it there?

The OBS rule states that the runner is awarded the base they would have reached (again, in the judgment of the umpire) had the OBS not occurred. In your scenario, the runner was healthy before the OBS, and the OBS caused the injury to runner. If, in my judgment, the BR would have reached 3B if OBS had not occurred, then the award is 3B, regardless of the fact that the BR stopped at 2B.

The proper thing to do would be to call time, announce the award and ask the runner if he can make it to 3B. If the runner is injured enough that he can't get to 3B, then the coach may put a substitute runner in for him, and that substitute may continue running to 3B as per ASA 4-6-D. Do not simply put that substitute on 3B, but put him on 2B instead to have him run to the awarded 3B.

If we're dealing with kids, on the other hand, don't ask the kid if s/he can run to 3B. Ask the coach to check on him/her, and let the coach make the decision.