Scoring Question

[Tru_in_Blu]

Originally Posted by Stat-Man

NFCA Fastpitch Manual has this:

"Credit a fielder's choice:

1. when a ball is put in play where a preceding runner is forced out on the hit, or would have been forced out had no error occurred,

2. when a ball is put in play where a preceding runner who is forced to advance, is called out on an appeal for missing the first base she was to advance to,

3 when a ball is put in play where a play is made on any lead runner and an out occurs, or an out would have occurred had no error taken place, or the runner is safe, but the batter would have been out had the initial play been made at first, (....)"

{emphasis mine}

Item three seems to support my decision to score a FC. But if we still have differences of opinion, that's fine with me, too.

Well, it is very hard to argue scoring protocol against someone referred to as "Stat-Man". But I'll still give it a shot.

"Based on part (1), "to indicate the advance of the batter-runner who takes one or more bases while the fielder who handles the batted ball plays on a preceding runner;" -- I'm scoring this a FC for the batter and a 7-5 putout for Out #3. " Taken literally, this would mean that with a runner on 2B and a ball off the wall in CF that F8 recovers and throws to F2 and "plays on a preceding runner", that the batter would not be credited with a base hit.

Same thing on your #3 point above. Runner on 2B attempts to score on a batted ball hit to the outfield [aka a base hit] but is thrown out at home. No base hit for the batter? Don't think so.

This is one of those situations we had in Business Law I. We [students] always argued that "it wasn't fair", and the Professor always said "but it's the law". No, not that it was foul, necessarily.


Ted

[AtlUmpSteve]

Originally Posted by Tru_in_Blu

Well, it is very hard to argue scoring protocol against someone referred to as "Stat-Man". But I'll still give it a shot.

"Based on part (1), "to indicate the advance of the batter-runner who takes one or more bases while the fielder who handles the batted ball plays on a preceding runner;" -- I'm scoring this a FC for the batter and a 7-5 putout for Out #3. " Taken literally, this would mean that with a runner on 2B and a ball off the wall in CF that F8 recovers and throws to F2 and "plays on a preceding runner", that the batter would not be credited with a base hit.

Same thing on your #3 point above. Runner on 2B attempts to score on a batted ball hit to the outfield [aka a base hit] but is thrown out at home. No base hit for the batter? Don't think so.

This is one of those situations we had in Business Law I. We [students] always argued that "it wasn't fair", and the Professor always said "but it's the law". No, not that it was foul, necessarily.


Ted

Tru, here's the problem with each of your examples; every one includes a runner that has already safely advanced a base, and then is put out. That, clearly, isn't a fielder's choice.

But, the OP has a runner attempting to advance on the batted ball, that is put out before successfully advancing. At all. It may have been poor baserunning, but the rule quoted above (FC 3) makes this play a fielder's choice.

I hear you; if the runner stayed on 2nd, there is no play, and it's a hit. But the runner didn't stay on 2nd, stupidly attempted to advance, and was put out. The scoring rule makes that a fielder's choice.

[Tru_in_Blu]

Originally Posted by AtlUmpSteve

Tru, here's the problem with each of your examples; every one includes a runner that has already safely advanced a base, and then is put out. That, clearly, isn't a fielder's choice.

But, the OP has a runner attempting to advance on the batted ball, that is put out before successfully advancing. At all. It may have been poor baserunning, but the rule quoted above (FC 3) makes this play a fielder's choice.

I hear you; if the runner stayed on 2nd, there is no play, and it's a hit. But the runner didn't stay on 2nd, stupidly attempted to advance, and was put out. The scoring rule makes that a fielder's choice.

Well, I think the softball rules are somewhat restrictive, so let's try the baseball rules logic.

10.05 Base Hits
A base hit is a statistic credited to a batter when such batter reaches base safely, as set forth in this Rule 10.05.
(a) The official scorer shall credit a batter with a base hit when:

(4) the batter reaches first base safely on a fair ball that has not been touched by a fielder and that is in fair territory when the ball reaches the outfield, unless in the scorer's judgment the ball could have been handled with ordinary effort;

(b) The official scorer shall not credit a base hit when a:
(3) pitcher, the catcher or any infielder handles a batted ball and puts out a preceding runner who is attempting to advance one base or to return to his original base, or would have put out such runner with ordinary effort except for a fielding error. The official scorer shall charge the batter with a time at bat but no hit;

In our original post, since the ball was hit to the outfield, the batter is credited with a hit. I believe the deciding factor in the two above scenarios would be that the ball in the outfield would likely not result in the fielder to retire BR at first base, but in the second it would except for the choice made by the defense to play on a different runner. That's pretty much the logic I'm agreeing with.

Ted

[argodad]

If my DD was pitching, it was obviously a FC. If she was batting ... base hit all the way!

[Tru_in_Blu]

Originally Posted by argodad

If my DD was pitching, it was obviously a FC. If she was batting ... base hit all the way!

Yeah, I get the nepotism angle. But, Argo, what if you were the paid official scorer??

I missed one of my league games somewhere along the line and learned that my team was no-hit the previous evening. Seems there was some debate about a ground ball, and defensive effort, and a runner reaching first base. My [visiting] team obviously scored it as a base hit. Unfortunately, the home team book is "official", so we "officially" had egg on our collective faces as a result.

Ted

[argodad]

Originally Posted by Tru_in_Blu

Yeah, I get the nepotism angle. But, Argo, what if you were the paid official scorer??

Ted

I'd have to give it a hit.

I kept an unofficial book for 4 years of HS, 4 years of college, and 8 years of travel ball. My interp on the FC was that the fielder chose to make the play they did when they could have gotten the BR if they had chosen to. (Of course, there were some force plays where the defense got the out when they would never have had a chance at the BR. But those are FCs by definition.)

[tcblue13]

Originally Posted by argodad

I'd have to give it a hit.

I kept an unofficial book for 4 years of HS, 4 years of college, and 8 years of travel ball. My interp on the FC was that the fielder chose to make the play they did when they could have gotten the BR if they had chosen to. (Of course, there were some force plays where the defense got the out when they would never have had a chance at the BR. But those are FCs by definition.)

Curiosity Question: How do you note it in the book when the force at second is the third out?