Scoring Question

[TwoBits]

I agree. Speaking NFHS rules, had the runner not been thrown out at third, the batter would have been credited with a hit. 9-3-2c.

[Tru_in_Blu]

Originally Posted by TwoBits

I agree. Speaking NFHS rules, had the runner not been thrown out at third, the batter would have been credited with a hit. 9-3-2c.

This rule indicates that the aattempt to put out another runner was unsuccessful, so I don't think applies here.

The whole concept of "fielder's choice" is just that - a fielder chooses to retire one of one or more runners. E.G. Bases loaded, 2 outs, ground ball to F5. Her choices are: step on third [runner out 5-U]; throw home for a force [runner out 5-2]; flip the ball to someone covering second base for a force [runner out 5-4]; or simply throw to first to retire BR 5-3.

If F5 dove for the ball, [assuming a difficult play here and no error charged] knocked it down, scrambled to pick it up and threw it to home, and the runner was safe, the official scorer would then decide if the fielder had a chance to get the runner at first base. If, in his/her opinion the BR would have beat the throw, it would be ruled a base hit.

Ted

[TwoBits]

Weird thing: None of my softball rule books define the term "fielder's choice" in the definition sections. I did check my baseball rule books (both major league rules and NFHS), and both have definitions for the term, and neither make mention of a runner being forced as a requirement for a fielder's choice.

So, speaking softball, my answer is: Don't know how this would be scored! I still tend to think it would be a fielder's choice, but that may be the baseball umpire in me talking.

[CajunNewBlue]

The instances of fielders choice in the nfhs softball rulebook use force plays... Thats why im still leaning towards a single with a 3rd out on the DMC or DMR for trying to push to third with the ball less than (assuming) 60'-90' away.
Hate to take away a no hitter, but.... ok i don't really care but if i appear to care does that count?
gonna check the caseplays on this... like i don't have enough stuff to do!!

[TwoBits]

Added to top:

Just looked further into baseball rules, and their use of the defintion "fielder's choice" in the scoring section makes mention it must be either the pitcher, catcher, or other infielder that plays on a runner attempting to advance. So in baseball, the OP is definitely a hit.

[CajunNewBlue]

yeah but baseball is so "hard" to call... with all their rules and stuff.

[Skahtboi]

Fielder’s Choice: A fielder fielding a ground ball and attempting to
put out a preceding base runner rather than the batter-runner at first when
a throw to first base would have put out the batter-runner.

A hit is credited to the batter when:

On a ball that reaches the outfield untouched by an infielder, unless
the ball should have been handled by an infielder with ordinary effort
(e.g., ball between the legs).

(Source; NCAA 2009 Softball Rules and Interpretations)

So, there is a decision that needs to be made in the OP. Could the ball have been played upon by an infielder? Could the outfielder have thrown the BR out at first? If there could have been no out at first, no matter what, then the batter is credited with a hit and F7 is credited with a putout. That seems to me to be the most likely outcome of the OP.

Originally Posted by Skahtboi

So, there is a decision that needs to be made in the OP. Could the ball have been played upon by an infielder? Could the outfielder have thrown the BR out at first? If there could have been no out at first, no matter what, then the batter is credited with a hit and F7 is credited with a putout. That seems to me to be the most likely outcome of the OP.

And decisions is why there's usually a PAID scorer at the major league, minor league, and big-time collegiate levels of baseball, and at the big-time collegiate levels of softball. They are PAID to make those decisions, just like we blues are PAID to make decisions on the field. Does anyone like getting PAID to decide stuff?

(It's Friday, and the smarta** in me just wanted to say something smarta**ed before the weekend dulls my mind for Monday morning thus the caps PAID!)

[Stat-Man]

Originally Posted by TwoBits

Weird thing: None of my softball rule books define the term "fielder's choice" in the definition sections.

Check 2009 NFHS Rule 9-3-2-c-Note -- They have it defined in the scoring and recordkeeping section

Based on part (1), "to indicate the advance of the batter-runner who takes one or more bases while the fielder who handles the batted ball plays on a preceding runner;" -- I'm scoring this a FC for the batter and a 7-5 putout for Out #3.

[Tru_in_Blu]

Originally Posted by Stat-Man

Check 2009 NFHS Rule 9-3-2-c-Note -- They have it defined in the scoring and recordkeeping section

Based on part (1), "to indicate the advance of the batter-runner who takes one or more bases while the fielder who handles the batted ball plays on a preceding runner;" -- I'm scoring this a FC for the batter and a 7-5 putout for Out #3.

I'm standing by my scoring as a base-hit. In most cases, consider the scoring as the defense's option of choosing which runner to retire. Example: w/ R1 on 1B and 2 outs, B2 grounds out to F6. F6 could have easily thrown to F3 to retire B2. But defense is taught to take the "safest" out when possible. So in this case, F6 simply runs over to 2B and steps on the base, forcing R1. B2 reached base on a FC.

Example: w/ R1 on 1B and no outs, B2 hits a soft fly ball to shallow right-center field. F8, F9, and F4 all converge on the ball. R1, unsure whether the ball will be caught or not, is half-way between first and second bases. B2 arrives as 1B as the ball hits the ground. F8 picks up the ball and throws to F6, retiring R1 on a force play. Unfortunately for B2, there was a runner on base. Had there been no runner, she would have had a base-hit, but this time, she's 0-1 reaching on a FC.

The 'playing on a preceding runner' part is usually associated with the defense's "choice" of either retiring the BR or another runner. With a runner on 3B and the infield in, B2 hits a sharp grounder to F6 as the runner breaks for home. F6 throws to F2 who tags out runner while BR reaches 1B. Score that a FC.

With a runner on 3B and the infield in, B2 hits a sharp grounder between F5 and F6. Runner trips over her own feet, falls, and then tries to score. F7, who was playing shallow throws to F2 who tags out the runner. Don't tell me you're going to score that as a FC! If you are, you'd better re-take Scoring 201 over again.

Ted

[IRISHMAFIA]

Okay, time to interject an "official" umpire response when it comes to a scoring question.

I don't care.

[Stat-Man]

Originally Posted by Tru_in_Blu

I'm standing by my scoring as a base-hit.

NFCA Fastpitch Manual has this:

"Credit a fielder's choice:

1. when a ball is put in play where a preceding runner is forced out on the hit, or would have been forced out had no error occurred,

2. when a ball is put in play where a preceding runner who is forced to advance, is called out on an appeal for missing the first base she was to advance to,

3 when a ball is put in play where a play is made on any lead runner and an out occurs, or an out would have occurred had no error taken place, or the runner is safe, but the batter would have been out had the initial play been made at first, (....)"

{emphasis mine}

Item three seems to support my decision to score a FC. But if we still have differences of opinion, that's fine with me, too.

[Tru_in_Blu]

Originally Posted by Stat-Man

NFCA Fastpitch Manual has this:

"Credit a fielder's choice:

1. when a ball is put in play where a preceding runner is forced out on the hit, or would have been forced out had no error occurred,

2. when a ball is put in play where a preceding runner who is forced to advance, is called out on an appeal for missing the first base she was to advance to,

3 when a ball is put in play where a play is made on any lead runner and an out occurs, or an out would have occurred had no error taken place, or the runner is safe, but the batter would have been out had the initial play been made at first, (....)"

{emphasis mine}

Item three seems to support my decision to score a FC. But if we still have differences of opinion, that's fine with me, too.

Well, it is very hard to argue scoring protocol against someone referred to as "Stat-Man". But I'll still give it a shot.

"Based on part (1), "to indicate the advance of the batter-runner who takes one or more bases while the fielder who handles the batted ball plays on a preceding runner;" -- I'm scoring this a FC for the batter and a 7-5 putout for Out #3. " Taken literally, this would mean that with a runner on 2B and a ball off the wall in CF that F8 recovers and throws to F2 and "plays on a preceding runner", that the batter would not be credited with a base hit.

Same thing on your #3 point above. Runner on 2B attempts to score on a batted ball hit to the outfield [aka a base hit] but is thrown out at home. No base hit for the batter? Don't think so.

This is one of those situations we had in Business Law I. We [students] always argued that "it wasn't fair", and the Professor always said "but it's the law". No, not that it was foul, necessarily.


Ted