Scoring Question

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

Yeah, and God help that poor student if s/he gets one wrong in the coach's mind!!!

And in this economy, a PAY cut may just happen to the poor sap!

[ucsid]

The NCAA softball statisticians manual is an excellent resource for scoring-related questions. Most of the interpretations should apply to any level of softball.

http://web1.ncaa.org/web_files/stats...s%20manual.pdf

I realize this is an umpires' forum, but scoring questions do arise on occasion, so I thought I would post this link.

[SethPDX]

Originally Posted by Ref Ump Welsch

And decisions is why there's usually a PAID scorer at the major league, minor league, and big-time collegiate levels of baseball, and at the big-time collegiate levels of softball. They are PAID to make those decisions, just like we blues are PAID to make decisions on the field. Does anyone like getting PAID to decide stuff?

And the PAID scorer at my city's minor league stadium has made some really questionable decisions. Not worse than the decisions I made in yesterday's game, though...

Originally Posted by SethPDX

And the PAID scorer at my city's minor league stadium has made some really questionable decisions. Not worse than the decisions I made in yesterday's game, though...

For which you were paid

[tcblue13]

Originally Posted by voicedata

My daughter had a no-hitter going in a game. There was a player on second (by walk , and passed ball) with two outs. The next hitter hit a ground all between shortstop and third and the left fielder threw the girl out going to third. Does that get scored a fielders choice or a single.

E-7 on the throw to the wrong base - no-hitter intact

[3afan]

Originally Posted by voicedata

My daughter had a no-hitter going in a game. There was a player on second (by walk , and passed ball) with two outs. The next hitter hit a ground all between shortstop and third and the left fielder threw the girl out going to third. Does that get scored a fielders choice or a single.

thats a HIT all the way

[Stat-Man]

Originally Posted by TwoBits

Weird thing: None of my softball rule books define the term "fielder's choice" in the definition sections.

Check 2009 NFHS Rule 9-3-2-c-Note -- They have it defined in the scoring and recordkeeping section

Based on part (1), "to indicate the advance of the batter-runner who takes one or more bases while the fielder who handles the batted ball plays on a preceding runner;" -- I'm scoring this a FC for the batter and a 7-5 putout for Out #3.

[Tru_in_Blu]

Originally Posted by Stat-Man

Check 2009 NFHS Rule 9-3-2-c-Note -- They have it defined in the scoring and recordkeeping section

Based on part (1), "to indicate the advance of the batter-runner who takes one or more bases while the fielder who handles the batted ball plays on a preceding runner;" -- I'm scoring this a FC for the batter and a 7-5 putout for Out #3.

I'm standing by my scoring as a base-hit. In most cases, consider the scoring as the defense's option of choosing which runner to retire. Example: w/ R1 on 1B and 2 outs, B2 grounds out to F6. F6 could have easily thrown to F3 to retire B2. But defense is taught to take the "safest" out when possible. So in this case, F6 simply runs over to 2B and steps on the base, forcing R1. B2 reached base on a FC.

Example: w/ R1 on 1B and no outs, B2 hits a soft fly ball to shallow right-center field. F8, F9, and F4 all converge on the ball. R1, unsure whether the ball will be caught or not, is half-way between first and second bases. B2 arrives as 1B as the ball hits the ground. F8 picks up the ball and throws to F6, retiring R1 on a force play. Unfortunately for B2, there was a runner on base. Had there been no runner, she would have had a base-hit, but this time, she's 0-1 reaching on a FC.

The 'playing on a preceding runner' part is usually associated with the defense's "choice" of either retiring the BR or another runner. With a runner on 3B and the infield in, B2 hits a sharp grounder to F6 as the runner breaks for home. F6 throws to F2 who tags out runner while BR reaches 1B. Score that a FC.

With a runner on 3B and the infield in, B2 hits a sharp grounder between F5 and F6. Runner trips over her own feet, falls, and then tries to score. F7, who was playing shallow throws to F2 who tags out the runner. Don't tell me you're going to score that as a FC! If you are, you'd better re-take Scoring 201 over again.

Ted

[IRISHMAFIA]

Okay, time to interject an "official" umpire response when it comes to a scoring question.

I don't care.

[Stat-Man]

Originally Posted by Tru_in_Blu

I'm standing by my scoring as a base-hit.

NFCA Fastpitch Manual has this:

"Credit a fielder's choice:

1. when a ball is put in play where a preceding runner is forced out on the hit, or would have been forced out had no error occurred,

2. when a ball is put in play where a preceding runner who is forced to advance, is called out on an appeal for missing the first base she was to advance to,

3 when a ball is put in play where a play is made on any lead runner and an out occurs, or an out would have occurred had no error taken place, or the runner is safe, but the batter would have been out had the initial play been made at first, (....)"

{emphasis mine}

Item three seems to support my decision to score a FC. But if we still have differences of opinion, that's fine with me, too.

[SethPDX]

Originally Posted by Ref Ump Welsch

For which you were paid

Well, both teams were pretty exasperated with our performance, but at least we called it both ways.

[Tru_in_Blu]

Originally Posted by Stat-Man

NFCA Fastpitch Manual has this:

"Credit a fielder's choice:

1. when a ball is put in play where a preceding runner is forced out on the hit, or would have been forced out had no error occurred,

2. when a ball is put in play where a preceding runner who is forced to advance, is called out on an appeal for missing the first base she was to advance to,

3 when a ball is put in play where a play is made on any lead runner and an out occurs, or an out would have occurred had no error taken place, or the runner is safe, but the batter would have been out had the initial play been made at first, (....)"

{emphasis mine}

Item three seems to support my decision to score a FC. But if we still have differences of opinion, that's fine with me, too.

Well, it is very hard to argue scoring protocol against someone referred to as "Stat-Man". But I'll still give it a shot.

"Based on part (1), "to indicate the advance of the batter-runner who takes one or more bases while the fielder who handles the batted ball plays on a preceding runner;" -- I'm scoring this a FC for the batter and a 7-5 putout for Out #3. " Taken literally, this would mean that with a runner on 2B and a ball off the wall in CF that F8 recovers and throws to F2 and "plays on a preceding runner", that the batter would not be credited with a base hit.

Same thing on your #3 point above. Runner on 2B attempts to score on a batted ball hit to the outfield [aka a base hit] but is thrown out at home. No base hit for the batter? Don't think so.

This is one of those situations we had in Business Law I. We [students] always argued that "it wasn't fair", and the Professor always said "but it's the law". No, not that it was foul, necessarily.


Ted

[AtlUmpSteve]

Originally Posted by Tru_in_Blu

Well, it is very hard to argue scoring protocol against someone referred to as "Stat-Man". But I'll still give it a shot.

"Based on part (1), "to indicate the advance of the batter-runner who takes one or more bases while the fielder who handles the batted ball plays on a preceding runner;" -- I'm scoring this a FC for the batter and a 7-5 putout for Out #3. " Taken literally, this would mean that with a runner on 2B and a ball off the wall in CF that F8 recovers and throws to F2 and "plays on a preceding runner", that the batter would not be credited with a base hit.

Same thing on your #3 point above. Runner on 2B attempts to score on a batted ball hit to the outfield [aka a base hit] but is thrown out at home. No base hit for the batter? Don't think so.

This is one of those situations we had in Business Law I. We [students] always argued that "it wasn't fair", and the Professor always said "but it's the law". No, not that it was foul, necessarily.


Ted

Tru, here's the problem with each of your examples; every one includes a runner that has already safely advanced a base, and then is put out. That, clearly, isn't a fielder's choice.

But, the OP has a runner attempting to advance on the batted ball, that is put out before successfully advancing. At all. It may have been poor baserunning, but the rule quoted above (FC 3) makes this play a fielder's choice.

I hear you; if the runner stayed on 2nd, there is no play, and it's a hit. But the runner didn't stay on 2nd, stupidly attempted to advance, and was put out. The scoring rule makes that a fielder's choice.

[Tru_in_Blu]

Originally Posted by AtlUmpSteve

Tru, here's the problem with each of your examples; every one includes a runner that has already safely advanced a base, and then is put out. That, clearly, isn't a fielder's choice.

But, the OP has a runner attempting to advance on the batted ball, that is put out before successfully advancing. At all. It may have been poor baserunning, but the rule quoted above (FC 3) makes this play a fielder's choice.

I hear you; if the runner stayed on 2nd, there is no play, and it's a hit. But the runner didn't stay on 2nd, stupidly attempted to advance, and was put out. The scoring rule makes that a fielder's choice.

Well, I think the softball rules are somewhat restrictive, so let's try the baseball rules logic.

10.05 Base Hits
A base hit is a statistic credited to a batter when such batter reaches base safely, as set forth in this Rule 10.05.
(a) The official scorer shall credit a batter with a base hit when:

(4) the batter reaches first base safely on a fair ball that has not been touched by a fielder and that is in fair territory when the ball reaches the outfield, unless in the scorer's judgment the ball could have been handled with ordinary effort;

(b) The official scorer shall not credit a base hit when a:
(3) pitcher, the catcher or any infielder handles a batted ball and puts out a preceding runner who is attempting to advance one base or to return to his original base, or would have put out such runner with ordinary effort except for a fielding error. The official scorer shall charge the batter with a time at bat but no hit;

In our original post, since the ball was hit to the outfield, the batter is credited with a hit. I believe the deciding factor in the two above scenarios would be that the ball in the outfield would likely not result in the fielder to retire BR at first base, but in the second it would except for the choice made by the defense to play on a different runner. That's pretty much the logic I'm agreeing with.

Ted

[argodad]

If my DD was pitching, it was obviously a FC. If she was batting ... base hit all the way!