Kill it or let it play out?

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by argodad

NFHS.

Fifth inning of a 1-1 game. Bases loaded. Wild pitch. R1 scores, F2 throws wildly to F1 covering. R2 scores and R3 moves to 3B. F2 receives the ball near the plate and starts walking toward the circle. R3 moves down the line toward home. F2 stops and moves toward her. R3 retreats. For whatever reason, F2 still does not throw the ball to the pitcher in the circle, but walks toward the circle. R3 dances off third again, feinting towards home. F2 moves toward R3. Now both players are jawing at each other.

R3 retreats to 3B, F2 chases her. R3 is standing on 3B when F2 gets there and applies a hard two-handed tag. R3 shoves back and both players attempt to take a swing at each other while cooler heads separate the combatants.

Of course, both are ejected. Florida HSAA mandate up to six weeks for gross unsportsmanlike conduct. It appears that both players (both are seniors) are finished playing softball in HS.

Question: Would you kill this play when the two players start yelling at each other, or would you let it play out?

I don't know, Larry. Everytime I talk about killing the ball in a FP game, I get beat up even though those folks still have no idea why the ball needs to remain live.

[NCASAUmp]

My $.02?

Let it play out. If the ball's live, the ball's live. Let the coaches mop up the mess, as it's not ours to mop up.

Since R3 was on the bag, and it sounds like there were no other runners, I would have killed the play right when the shoving started.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Another pet peeve!!!

I have to believe this is a direct result of the BS some of these kids are taught in this game.

THROW THE BALL BACK TO THE PITCHER!

Every damn play with runners on third base, these kids run a rotation as if they MAY get an out one time out of every thousand attempts.

THROW THE BALL BACK TO THE PITCHER!!

Every damn pitch the catcher jumps up and cocks the arm like there is some serious threat.

THROW THE BALL BACK TO THE PITCHER!!!!

And they charge the runner EVEN IF THEY ARE STEPPING BACK ON THE BASE as if they are going to get a free out.

THROW THE BALL BACK TO THE PITCHER!!!!!!!!

I have no idea how anyone can call themself a coach if they permit (and some actually encourage) this inane act that has more chance of turning into a disaster than getting an out.

THROW THE BALL BACK TO THE PITCHER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Of course, you have these parents and coaches that believe this is a very important and strategic element of the game and THEIR DAUGHTER gets that runner out almost every time. And, yes, we are supposed to be that stupid to believe it.

Is there any umpire who doesn't know that the best and safest play after a pitch with a runner on third is to THROW THE BALL BACK TO THE PITCHER?

Do you know what my daughter would do if she was catching with a runner on third?




She'd nail that ***** at third for an out

[SethPDX]

Originally Posted by NCASAUmp

My $.02?

Let it play out. If the ball's live, the ball's live. Let the coaches mop up the mess, as it's not ours to mop up.

I like it. I'd probably wait until the pushing and shoving started before calling time. Then I'd stand back, write down numbers, and let the coaches deal with it.

(Who knows--if we have a bench-clearing brawl we can toss enough people that we can go home early! )

[ronald]

In Federation, "Now both players are jawing at each other."

What does that have to do with good sportsmanship? I'm killing it and issuing warnings for unsporting behavior. That is what I am doing. I don't have 2 cents so does anyone have change for a dollar?

[Tru_in_Blu]

Originally Posted by ronald

In Federation, "Now both players are jawing at each other."

What does that have to do with good sportsmanship? I'm killing it and issuing warnings for unsporting behavior. That is what I am doing. I don't have 2 cents so does anyone have change for a dollar?

I'll side with Ronald on this one. If I'm close enough and can hear what's going on, and there's a likelihood of something bad happening, I'm going to try and head it off. Fortunately, I haven't seen many instances where things got that heated and for that I'm thankful.

It's unfortunate that because of these actions, both players may be done for the season. Maybe they deserved it; maybe they had history back to 10U days, I don't know. But maybe it could have been defused.

Ted

[NCASAUmp]

Originally Posted by Tru_in_Blu

I'll side with Ronald on this one. If I'm close enough and can hear what's going on, and there's a likelihood of something bad happening, I'm going to try and head it off. Fortunately, I haven't seen many instances where things got that heated and for that I'm thankful.

It's unfortunate that because of these actions, both players may be done for the season. Maybe they deserved it; maybe they had history back to 10U days, I don't know. But maybe it could have been defused.

Ted

You can certainly try and head it off at the pass, but just don't get caught in the crossfire.

[Dakota]

The Federation is pretty clear about this kind of thing, and it could very well have been handled earlier in the confrontation.

NFHS Rule 3-6 (Bench and Field Conduct)

ART. 13 . . . Unsporting acts shall not be committed, including, but not limited to:
a. use of words or actions to incite or try to incite spectators to demonstrate.
b. use of profanity, intimidation and/or deceitful tactics, or baiting or taunting; or
c. behavior in any manner not in accordance with the spirit of fair play.

PENALTY: (Arts. 11 through 16) The umpire shall eject the offender from the game, unless the offense is judged to be of a minor nature. If minor, the umpire may warn the offender and eject if the offense is repeated.

ART. 19 . . . Team personnel shall not participate in a fight or leave his/her position/ bench area when a fight has broken out or may break out. A coach who enters the field to restrain combatants from his/her team shall not be considered to have violated this rule.
NOTE:Fighting is any attempt by a player or non-player to strike or engage an opponent in a combative manner unrelated to softball. Such acts include, but are not limited to, attempts to strike an opponent(s) with the arm(s), hand(s), leg(s) or foot (feet), whether or not there is contact.

PENALTY: (Arts. 18, 19) Considered serious offenses, the offender shall be ejected.

The taunting / baiting rule may have been applied as soon as the "play" ended and the trash talking began. This could have (maybe) stopped things short of the fight.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

I don't know, Larry. Everytime I talk about killing the ball in a FP game, I get beat up even though those folks still have no idea why the ball needs to remain live.

Irish:

I agree with you. The instant F2 and R3 started jawing at each other, kill the ball because they are not playing softball anymore. Then take appropriate action that is required by the umpires for such actions by the players.

MTD, Sr.

[3afan]

agree with that ........

[CecilOne]

I started thinking the ump had no rule basis for calling time, but then realized the jawing was probably baiting/taunting. Thanks to Tom for quoting Art. 13, before I had time to look it up.

[IRISHMAFIA]

It comes down to this:

Dead ball or not, the likelihood of a confrontation was high. Jawing or not, other than something similar to "That's enough, let's play ball" there is little else an umpire may or should do.

This issue is something the coaches should resolve, and quickly. If you have a coach that does anything, but attempt to stop it, s/he should be walking to the bus with the player.

And before anyone suggests that it would probably be safer to keep them in the dugout so that there is no confrontation away from the field, that isn't the umpire's job, responsibility or business. That is one of the reasons there should be a school administrator on site.

[ronald]

I know Mark does Basketball and that is my mindset on this play and, in a bb game this year when I saw one player jawing at another in a basketball game, a split second later, air went into the whistle and a T. That was my thinking when I answered and then went upstairs to the rule book. Thanks to Tom for posting the rule cause I was not going to type it.

Tom, do you have the rules on a disk or something different?

If fight starts, I am staying away but I will take quick action on jawing. I guess sportsmanship is my pet peeve. Detest unsporting behavior.

Thanks, Ron

[Dakota]

Originally Posted by ronald

...Tom, do you have the rules on a disk or something different?...

When we register with the Minnesota State High School League, one of the benefits we get is membership in the NFHS Officials Association, and one of the benefits of that is access to an online .pdf copy of the rule book (which I also have saved to my hard drive). Not every state includes membership in the NFHS Officials Association, and I appreciate that the MSHSL does so. You can join as an individual; there is a fee, but I don't know what it is.