what the heckwas that runner?

[topper]

Originally Posted by AtlUmpSteve

It's a lookback violation if she returns to first, stops on it, then leaves. It isn't a lookback violation if she continues on without stopping.

If I am understanding this situation correctly, the runner (in NCAA) who has overrun the base and returns within the baseline extended is not committed to advance nor return under the LBR until she 1) actively attempts toward 2nd, or 2) stops on 1st. Once she retouches 1st, she cannot advance to 2nd; but that isn't what happened here, she retreated toward home (apparently think it was a foul, or something). So, she hasn't made an attempt to 2nd, nor did she stop on first; her one legal stop and change of direction under the LBR was when she reversed and went back to first the 2nd time.

Let's say this wasn't the BR overrunning first. We say that the LBR does not require runners to stop, that when in motion they can continue in that direction indefinitely without violating, that a runner can keep circling the bases even if the pitcher has the ball in the circle. Change the situation to a runner is between 2nd and third when the pitcher gets the ball, we know the runner can legally round third and continue home. By the same rule, she could return to 2nd, and continue back toward first; as long as, in both cases, she did not STOP on a base.

So, we know the BR cannot go to 2nd (in ASA and NFHS because she turned right, in NCAA because she now retouched first base); but how is it a LBR violation if, without stopping, she continues to head in the same direction that she is legally headed? Yes, she is in jeopardy, and yes, we know the "force" is reinstated. But, what exact part of the LBR is violated??

Me, I've got a no call.

The OP does say she touched 1st base on her way back. She doesn't have to "stop" there, only touch. LBR - out.

[wadeintothem]

This is not just passing a base like any other base Steve.. this is touching it once, going back to it, touching it again.. then coming off it again.

LBR out in all codes, except YSISF where it is LBR - Out - I keel you.

Definately DMR as well. Why are we trying to protect this runner?

We need a thinning of the herd and thats an out for me.

[SethPDX]

Originally Posted by wadeintothem

LBR out in all codes, except YSISF where it is LBR - Out - I keel you.

Incorrect. This violation causes you to play, um, "shorthanded."

[Tru_in_Blu]

Can the batter who receives a walk overrun 1B without liability to be put out? I thought once the batter touched 1B [LBR aside] she had received her "award". If she left the base for any reason, she would be at risk of being tagged out.

I saw a team play and when an exuberant batter received a walk, the catcher would throw the ball to F3 who had come over to the base. Often times the runner wouldn't know the ball was in F3's possession. For some reason, sometimes the younger JO girls would overrun 1B, or the BR would get there and do a little jump after toughing the base. If F3 is close enough and the runner comes off that base and is tagged, she's out.

I suppose that's the softball version of the hidden ball trick.

So I guess in the original post, other that questioning a lot of what that BR did, why would a BR overrun 1B?

Ted

[wadeintothem]

You can overrun first on a walk.

If you round it (ie attempt to advance).. you are liable to be put out.

[Dakota]

Originally Posted by Tru_in_Blu

Can the batter who receives a walk overrun 1B without liability to be put out? I thought once the batter touched 1B [LBR aside] she had received her "award". If she left the base for any reason, she would be at risk of being tagged out.

I saw a team play and when an exuberant batter received a walk, the catcher would throw the ball to F3 who had come over to the base. Often times the runner wouldn't know the ball was in F3's possession. For some reason, sometimes the younger JO girls would overrun 1B, or the BR would get there and do a little jump after toughing the base. If F3 is close enough and the runner comes off that base and is tagged, she's out.

I suppose that's the softball version of the hidden ball trick.

So I guess in the original post, other that questioning a lot of what that BR did, why would a BR overrun 1B?

Ted

Speaking ASA, and all other softball codes I know about, once a batter becomes a BR, it doesn't matter how or why she became a BR. If she can overrun on a batted ball (and, of course, she can), she can overrun on a BOB, on a D3K... she can even overrun on a HBP!

Now, once she arrives at the base and has NOT overrun, if she leaves the base (i.e. your exuberant player who jumps up), she can be tagged out while off the base.

As to why a BR would overrun on a BOB, well, the ball is live, and she may be attempting to catch the defense napping.

[Tru_in_Blu]

Originally Posted by Dakota

Speaking ASA, and all other softball codes I know about, once a batter becomes a BR, it doesn't matter how or why she became a BR. If she can overrun on a batted ball (and, of course, she can), she can overrun on a BOB, on a D3K... she can even overrun on a HBP!

Now, once she arrives at the base and has NOT overrun, if she leaves the base (i.e. your exuberant player who jumps up), she can be tagged out while off the base.

As to why a BR would overrun on a BOB, well, the ball is live, and she may be attempting to catch the defense napping.

On a batted ball to an infielder and a D3K I can understand the BR running through the base. A HBP is pointless since the ball is dead. I know a lot of times teams have a play on when a runner is on 3B and the batter gets a walk, the BR then makes a hard push to 1B and rounds the base [as opposed to running through it]. Many times the runner will continue to 2B without a throw if the defense isn't alert enough or skilled enough to defend that play.

So a BR who has a walk can "run through the base" and not be liable to be tagged out?

Thanx.

Ted

[Dakota]

Originally Posted by Tru_in_Blu

So a BR who has a walk can "run through the base" and not be liable to be tagged out?

Hmmm... like I said, once a batter becomes a BR, it doesn't matter how or why she became a BR.

[AtlUmpSteve]

Originally Posted by topper

The OP does say she touched 1st base on her way back. She doesn't have to "stop" there, only touch. LBR - out.

Can you quote (cite) a specific line in any version of the lookback rule that supports that statement?

ASA 8-7.T(2) says "Once a player stops at a base for any reason, the runner will be declared out if leaving the base."

NFHS 8-7-3 says "Once the runner stops at a base for any reason, she will be declared out if she leaves the base.

NCAA 12-21.f(3) says "The batter-runner (sic) may not step off any base after stopping at it."

NCAA 12-21.f(4) says "The batter-runner, (sic) after overrunning first base, may not retouch the base and advance toward second."
This is the call that was made in the NCAA WCWS, not the noted play.

NCAA 12-21.f(5) says "The batter-runner, (sic) must immediately return nonstop to first base (she did), or is she does not retouch first base, must make an attempt to advance to second."

I still don't see any specific clause of the LBR violated by the BR overrunning first base, making the required return (while having NOT determined a committed direction), retouching first base legally, not advancing toward second base illegally, and, without stopping or changing direction, continuing in the one direction that no rule states it is illegal to continue. She THEN makes the one and only change of direction that applies under the LBR, which she can legally make, and returns to the base.

Okay, I do now see an out where the NCAA LBR applies, but it has NOTHING to do with the retouch, which does not violate the stopping and leaving part of the rule. It is the NCAA (only; not true in ASA or NFHS) that when a runner is in motion when the pitcher receives the ball, her only legal change of direction must happen "immediately" (NCAA 12-21.b). Both ASA and NFHS allow one legal stop and change of direction, and that can happen at any "decision" moment after the pitcher receives the ball, does not have to be immediately.

So, I now agree with an out in NCAA; for the reason that the change of direction was after the allowed "immediately."

[Big Slick]

Steve, you are making this way more complicated than it needs to be.

Let's address your issue about "stopping." We will take NCAA 12.21.f (4) as issue now. If you overrun first, return to first, touch it, then break to second base, that's on out. This is a specific case of 12.21.f (3), because to change directions, you have to "stop" (technically you have an acceleration = zero as my engineer friend of mine told me). Therefore, point 4 reinforces point 3. Why didn't they write it that specific? Because that is the only direction a runner should go. Why would a runner overrun first and then decide to head back home? Does she want to hit again? The rules do not address this because it isn't suppose to happen. So I go back to may earlier response: either call her out for point 4 (and deal with the offensive coach) or call time and place her at first (and deal with the defensive coach).

[Dakota]

Originally Posted by Big Slick

...technically you have an acceleration = zero as my engineer friend of mine told me...

No, to be stopped, technically, you have velocity = 0. Acceleration (rate of change of velocity) may or may not be zero, and it certainly will NOT be zero at the first instant of v=0. Also, physics only requires you to go through at least a fractional time where v=0 if you change directions from a single point. Unless a runner reverses direction, it is unlikely she stopped on a single point; more likely she did maintain some forward velocity.

Regardless, I seriously doubt the NCAA rule book meant for umpires to refer to Newtonian Physics to make a judgment. It is more likely "stop" means "visibly stop."

[Big Slick]

Originally Posted by Dakota

Regardless, I seriously doubt the NCAA rule book meant for umpires to refer to Newtonian Physics to make a judgment. It is more likely "stop" means "visibly stop."

Yes, and that is why I suspect that #4 qualifies #3 (speaking of NCAA, ASA and NF as more strict on this rule, so no qualifier is necessary). There is different criteria for LBR when overrunning first base in all codes. If the batter walks and rounds first (heads to second), different LBR applies (may stop once, then immediately choose direction). You can continually running through second base on your way to third without "stopping."

Regardless how you want to phrase it for this specific case, the OP has the runner touching first and then leaving the bag. Either call her out; or call time and place her at first. What other choice do you have?

[Dakota]

Originally Posted by Big Slick

Yes, and that is why I suspect that #4 qualifies #3 (speaking of NCAA, ASA and NF as more strict on this rule, so no qualifier is necessary). There is different criteria for LBR when overrunning first base in all codes. If the batter walks and rounds first (heads to second), different LBR applies (may stop once, then immediately choose direction). You can continually running through second base on your way to third without "stopping."

Regardless how you want to phrase it for this specific case, the OP has the runner touching first and then leaving the bag. Either call her out; or call time and place her at first. What other choice do you have?

ASA and NFHS have the same issue regarding stopping on a base, even if not for the BR overrunning.

[Big Slick]

Originally Posted by Dakota

ASA and NFHS have the same issue regarding stopping on a base, even if not for the BR overrunning.

Dakota, not the point of my post.

Here is my point: all three code have the same LBR (albeit some different language, but it is interpreted the same) when a player rounds a base (i.e. she is between first and second, second and third, or third and home).

However, the criteria for the LRB change with a runner overruns first base, meaning there are now "a secondary" or "special case" LBR. And the codes diverge at this point. ASA and NF have a very strict rule (and NF has the best phrasing). NCAA is not as strict as ASA and NF (allows for the runner to break to second as long as she has not crossed into foul territory past the "base line extended"), but it is more restrictive than the "typical" LBR from when you round the base. However all three agree that once you overrun first, come back to the base and then go to second, the runner is out.

But neither code directly addresses the OP. Basically you have three options: call her out for LBR (dead ball); call time and place her there (still a dead ball); or allow the ball to be live and chaos ensue.

[youngump]

Originally Posted by Big Slick

Yes, and that is why I suspect that #4 qualifies #3 (speaking of NCAA, ASA and NF as more strict on this rule, so no qualifier is necessary). There is different criteria for LBR when overrunning first base in all codes. If the batter walks and rounds first (heads to second), different LBR applies (may stop once, then immediately choose direction). You can continually running through second base on your way to third without "stopping."

Regardless how you want to phrase it for this specific case, the OP has the runner touching first and then leaving the bag. Either call her out; or call time and place her at first. What other choice do you have?

Wait for her to stop and then call her out? If she doesn't stop she'll eventually be stopped by the backstop or they might make a play on her then we'll have the LBR off.
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