what the heckwas that runner?

[Dakota]

Originally Posted by Big Slick

...technically you have an acceleration = zero as my engineer friend of mine told me...

No, to be stopped, technically, you have velocity = 0. Acceleration (rate of change of velocity) may or may not be zero, and it certainly will NOT be zero at the first instant of v=0. Also, physics only requires you to go through at least a fractional time where v=0 if you change directions from a single point. Unless a runner reverses direction, it is unlikely she stopped on a single point; more likely she did maintain some forward velocity.

Regardless, I seriously doubt the NCAA rule book meant for umpires to refer to Newtonian Physics to make a judgment. It is more likely "stop" means "visibly stop."

[Big Slick]

Originally Posted by Dakota

Regardless, I seriously doubt the NCAA rule book meant for umpires to refer to Newtonian Physics to make a judgment. It is more likely "stop" means "visibly stop."

Yes, and that is why I suspect that #4 qualifies #3 (speaking of NCAA, ASA and NF as more strict on this rule, so no qualifier is necessary). There is different criteria for LBR when overrunning first base in all codes. If the batter walks and rounds first (heads to second), different LBR applies (may stop once, then immediately choose direction). You can continually running through second base on your way to third without "stopping."

Regardless how you want to phrase it for this specific case, the OP has the runner touching first and then leaving the bag. Either call her out; or call time and place her at first. What other choice do you have?

[Dakota]

Originally Posted by Big Slick

Yes, and that is why I suspect that #4 qualifies #3 (speaking of NCAA, ASA and NF as more strict on this rule, so no qualifier is necessary). There is different criteria for LBR when overrunning first base in all codes. If the batter walks and rounds first (heads to second), different LBR applies (may stop once, then immediately choose direction). You can continually running through second base on your way to third without "stopping."

Regardless how you want to phrase it for this specific case, the OP has the runner touching first and then leaving the bag. Either call her out; or call time and place her at first. What other choice do you have?

ASA and NFHS have the same issue regarding stopping on a base, even if not for the BR overrunning.

[Big Slick]

Originally Posted by Dakota

ASA and NFHS have the same issue regarding stopping on a base, even if not for the BR overrunning.

Dakota, not the point of my post.

Here is my point: all three code have the same LBR (albeit some different language, but it is interpreted the same) when a player rounds a base (i.e. she is between first and second, second and third, or third and home).

However, the criteria for the LRB change with a runner overruns first base, meaning there are now "a secondary" or "special case" LBR. And the codes diverge at this point. ASA and NF have a very strict rule (and NF has the best phrasing). NCAA is not as strict as ASA and NF (allows for the runner to break to second as long as she has not crossed into foul territory past the "base line extended"), but it is more restrictive than the "typical" LBR from when you round the base. However all three agree that once you overrun first, come back to the base and then go to second, the runner is out.

But neither code directly addresses the OP. Basically you have three options: call her out for LBR (dead ball); call time and place her there (still a dead ball); or allow the ball to be live and chaos ensue.

[Dakota]

Originally Posted by Big Slick

Dakota, not the point of my post.

Here is my point: all three code have the same LBR (albeit some different language, but it is interpreted the same) when a player rounds a base (i.e. she is between first and second, second and third, or third and home).

However, the criteria for the LRB change with a runner overruns first base, meaning there are now "a secondary" or "special case" LBR. And the codes diverge at this point. ASA and NF have a very strict rule (and NF has the best phrasing). NCAA is not as strict as ASA and NF (allows for the runner to break to second as long as she has not crossed into foul territory past the "base line extended"), but it is more restrictive than the "typical" LBR from when you round the base. However all three agree that once you overrun first, come back to the base and then go to second, the runner is out.

But neither code directly addresses the OP. Basically you have three options: call her out for LBR (dead ball); call time and place her there (still a dead ball); or allow the ball to be live and chaos ensue.

I know I wasn't addressing your main point; I was only addressing your sub-point that touching is the same as stopping. Touching is not a stop, unless the umpire judges that the runner did, indeed, stop. I was also correcting your claim that physics requires that she stop if she changes direction.

I tried to hint at the part I was responding to by both the subject line of my response and by the severe redaction I did when quoting you.

[youngump]

Originally Posted by Big Slick

Yes, and that is why I suspect that #4 qualifies #3 (speaking of NCAA, ASA and NF as more strict on this rule, so no qualifier is necessary). There is different criteria for LBR when overrunning first base in all codes. If the batter walks and rounds first (heads to second), different LBR applies (may stop once, then immediately choose direction). You can continually running through second base on your way to third without "stopping."

Regardless how you want to phrase it for this specific case, the OP has the runner touching first and then leaving the bag. Either call her out; or call time and place her at first. What other choice do you have?

Wait for her to stop and then call her out? If she doesn't stop she'll eventually be stopped by the backstop or they might make a play on her then we'll have the LBR off.
________
Headshops

[AtlUmpSteve]

Originally Posted by Big Slick

Regardless how you want to phrase it for this specific case, the OP has the runner touching first and then leaving the bag. Either call her out; or call time and place her at first. What other choice do you have?

The third choice is quite obvious, to me; she isn't out, the ball remains alive, and the runner is in jeopardy. What is your basis for calling time (particularly under NCAA rules) with a runner clearly off a base?

[Big Slick]

Originally Posted by AtlUmpSteve

The third choice is quite obvious, to me; she isn't out, the ball remains alive, and the runner is in jeopardy. What is your basis for calling time (particularly under NCAA rules) with a runner clearly off a base?

And how would you get a runner out between first and home when she walked?

[youngump]

Originally Posted by Big Slick

And how would you get a runner out between first and home when she walked?

By tagging her while off the base? She has advanced to first, so her walk protection is over. She has returned from overrunning so she has no such protection. If she moves toward home while you're trying to tag her she is out. Or if she doesn't go straight toward the base of her choice when you go to apply the tag.
(A smart pitcher would just hold the ball and wait for her to commit the inevitable LBR violation.)
________
Vaporizer

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by Dakota

Regardless, I seriously doubt the NCAA rule book meant for umpires to refer to Newtonian Physics

Yeah, most of our collegiate friends would think this is a cookie for those who are constipated

Professor: I don't feel well.
Dean: Why don't you go to the Dispensary? They'll give you a Newtonian Physic. That sucker will clean you right out, figs always do that for me.

[Dakota]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

Yeah, most of our collegiate friends would think this is a cookie for those who are constipated

Professor: I don't feel well.
Dean: Why don't you go to the Dispensary? They'll give you a Newtonian Physic. That sucker will clean you right out, figs always do that for me.