what the heckwas that runner?

[ronald]

Juco game.

Batter gets b4. As running to 1b, ball is thrown to pitcher (in control) in the circle. Runner overruns 1b, turns right and heads back to 1b touches it but keeps on running towards home, teammates holler and she turns around and heads back towards 1b.

What do you have?

NCAA
Fed
ASA

Thanks, Ronald

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by ronald

Juco game.

Batter gets b4. As running to 1b, ball is thrown to pitcher (in control) in the circle. Runner overruns 1b, turns right and heads back to 1b touches it but keeps on running towards home, teammates holler and she turns around and heads back towards 1b.

What do you have?

NCAA
Fed
ASA

Thanks, Ronald

ASA
The runner is in violation of the LBR the moment s/he leaves 1B. Once the runner turned right, s/he was committed to 1B.
8.7.T.3.e
RS 34.G

[Steve M]

Originally Posted by ronald

Juco game.

Batter gets b4. As running to 1b, ball is thrown to pitcher (in control) in the circle. Runner overruns 1b, turns right and heads back to 1b touches it but keeps on running towards home, teammates holler and she turns around and heads back towards 1b.

What do you have?

NCAA
Fed
ASA

Thanks, Ronald

OUT - all 3 codes.
Look-back violation.

[AtlUmpSteve]

In NCAA, need more information ; if the runner returns within 3' of the line, no matter which way she turns, she may legally advance, and is not commited to any base.

In ASA and FED, she is committed to first.

[Steve M]

Steve,
That runner went back to 1B and touched 1B - unless I've missed something, that's a look-back violation.

[AtlUmpSteve]

Originally Posted by Steve M

Steve,
That runner went back to 1B and touched 1B - unless I've missed something, that's a look-back violation.

It's a lookback violation if she returns to first, stops on it, then leaves. It isn't a lookback violation if she continues on without stopping.

If I am understanding this situation correctly, the runner (in NCAA) who has overrun the base and returns within the baseline extended is not committed to advance nor return under the LBR until she 1) actively attempts toward 2nd, or 2) stops on 1st. Once she retouches 1st, she cannot advance to 2nd; but that isn't what happened here, she retreated toward home (apparently think it was a foul, or something). So, she hasn't made an attempt to 2nd, nor did she stop on first; her one legal stop and change of direction under the LBR was when she reversed and went back to first the 2nd time.

Let's say this wasn't the BR overrunning first. We say that the LBR does not require runners to stop, that when in motion they can continue in that direction indefinitely without violating, that a runner can keep circling the bases even if the pitcher has the ball in the circle. Change the situation to a runner is between 2nd and third when the pitcher gets the ball, we know the runner can legally round third and continue home. By the same rule, she could return to 2nd, and continue back toward first; as long as, in both cases, she did not STOP on a base.

So, we know the BR cannot go to 2nd (in ASA and NFHS because she turned right, in NCAA because she now retouched first base); but how is it a LBR violation if, without stopping, she continues to head in the same direction that she is legally headed? Yes, she is in jeopardy, and yes, we know the "force" is reinstated. But, what exact part of the LBR is violated??

Me, I've got a no call.

[ronald]

Well, I was the PU and my partner called her out on a LBR violation. The coach interjected that she was in continuous motion so it should not be LBR but he again stated it was a LBR vioulation. In our post game discussion I remembered something about when the ball goes into the circle and the runner continues they can not stop and reverse or she is out (NCAAW). They must stop immediately and reverse. (could be wrong so will re-read the part in question) One could argue then that this does not apply since she reversed and put the force out back in play.


Thanks, Ron

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by AtlUmpSteve

It's a lookback violation if she returns to first, stops on it, then leaves. It isn't a lookback violation if she continues on without stopping.

If I am understanding this situation correctly, the runner (in NCAA) who has overrun the base and returns within the baseline extended is not committed to advance nor return under the LBR until she 1) actively attempts toward 2nd, or 2) stops on 1st. Once she retouches 1st, she cannot advance to 2nd; but that isn't what happened here, she retreated toward home (apparently think it was a foul, or something). So, she hasn't made an attempt to 2nd, nor did she stop on first; her one legal stop and change of direction under the LBR was when she reversed and went back to first the 2nd time.

Let's say this wasn't the BR overrunning first. We say that the LBR does not require runners to stop, that when in motion they can continue in that direction indefinitely without violating, that a runner can keep circling the bases even if the pitcher has the ball in the circle. Change the situation to a runner is between 2nd and third when the pitcher gets the ball, we know the runner can legally round third and continue home. By the same rule, she could return to 2nd, and continue back toward first; as long as, in both cases, she did not STOP on a base.

So, we know the BR cannot go to 2nd (in ASA and NFHS because she turned right, in NCAA because she now retouched first base); but how is it a LBR violation if, without stopping, she continues to head in the same direction that she is legally headed? Yes, she is in jeopardy, and yes, we know the "force" is reinstated. But, what exact part of the LBR is violated??

Me, I've got a no call.

Do you see "teammates holler and she turns around" as a LBR second stop if she stops to hear the hollering and then "heads back towards 1b"?

[AtlUmpSteve]

Originally Posted by CecilOne

Do you see "teammates holler and she turns around" as a LBR second stop if she stops to hear the hollering and then "heads back towards 1b"?

No, I see that as her one stop. Turning around after overrunning isn't a stop, because the rule requires her to turn around and she still has not indicated which way she is going.

Secondarily (and much less of a factor in my initial thoughts, but still pertinent as I flesh out my thinking), once she has returned between first and home, and reinstated the "force", has she not also reinstated "not yet reached first base" status? If so, then the LBR cannot apply.

[Big Slick]

Steve, it was Ball 4, you still have a force?

Either you have her out for leaving the base while the ball is in the circle, or you call time and put her on first. Either way, you have a player being goofy and you will have to deal with a coach.

[AtlUmpSteve]

Originally Posted by Big Slick

Steve, it was Ball 4, you still have a force?

Either you have her out for leaving the base while the ball is in the circle, or you call time and put her on first. Either way, you have a player being goofy and you will have to deal with a coach.

Like most of you, I am thinking of this as I go, so I need some time to think out the force part. What I am most certain of is I don't have an out for leaving a base, anymore than I would the runner that continues past any other base without stopping.

But, I know she is on jeopardy, having gone past the status of legally overrunning; and I believe she reinstated the status of "not yet reached first. I am positive I would be thinking that on a batted ball, and don't think that she is walked changes her BR status. My next conclusion is she must be in jeopardy, but since no "force" exists on the ball 4 awrded base, that must be a case where we cannot "reinstate" that which didn't exist before.

[Dholloway1962]

Exact same scenario as posted occurred in NCAA WCWS a few years ago. Runner out on LBR.

[topper]

Originally Posted by AtlUmpSteve

It's a lookback violation if she returns to first, stops on it, then leaves. It isn't a lookback violation if she continues on without stopping.

If I am understanding this situation correctly, the runner (in NCAA) who has overrun the base and returns within the baseline extended is not committed to advance nor return under the LBR until she 1) actively attempts toward 2nd, or 2) stops on 1st. Once she retouches 1st, she cannot advance to 2nd; but that isn't what happened here, she retreated toward home (apparently think it was a foul, or something). So, she hasn't made an attempt to 2nd, nor did she stop on first; her one legal stop and change of direction under the LBR was when she reversed and went back to first the 2nd time.

Let's say this wasn't the BR overrunning first. We say that the LBR does not require runners to stop, that when in motion they can continue in that direction indefinitely without violating, that a runner can keep circling the bases even if the pitcher has the ball in the circle. Change the situation to a runner is between 2nd and third when the pitcher gets the ball, we know the runner can legally round third and continue home. By the same rule, she could return to 2nd, and continue back toward first; as long as, in both cases, she did not STOP on a base.

So, we know the BR cannot go to 2nd (in ASA and NFHS because she turned right, in NCAA because she now retouched first base); but how is it a LBR violation if, without stopping, she continues to head in the same direction that she is legally headed? Yes, she is in jeopardy, and yes, we know the "force" is reinstated. But, what exact part of the LBR is violated??

Me, I've got a no call.

The OP does say she touched 1st base on her way back. She doesn't have to "stop" there, only touch. LBR - out.

[wadeintothem]

This is not just passing a base like any other base Steve.. this is touching it once, going back to it, touching it again.. then coming off it again.

LBR out in all codes, except YSISF where it is LBR - Out - I keel you.

Definately DMR as well. Why are we trying to protect this runner?

We need a thinning of the herd and thats an out for me.

[SethPDX]

Originally Posted by wadeintothem

LBR out in all codes, except YSISF where it is LBR - Out - I keel you.

Incorrect. This violation causes you to play, um, "shorthanded."