what the heckwas that runner?

[AtlUmpSteve]

Originally Posted by Steve M

Steve,
That runner went back to 1B and touched 1B - unless I've missed something, that's a look-back violation.

It's a lookback violation if she returns to first, stops on it, then leaves. It isn't a lookback violation if she continues on without stopping.

If I am understanding this situation correctly, the runner (in NCAA) who has overrun the base and returns within the baseline extended is not committed to advance nor return under the LBR until she 1) actively attempts toward 2nd, or 2) stops on 1st. Once she retouches 1st, she cannot advance to 2nd; but that isn't what happened here, she retreated toward home (apparently think it was a foul, or something). So, she hasn't made an attempt to 2nd, nor did she stop on first; her one legal stop and change of direction under the LBR was when she reversed and went back to first the 2nd time.

Let's say this wasn't the BR overrunning first. We say that the LBR does not require runners to stop, that when in motion they can continue in that direction indefinitely without violating, that a runner can keep circling the bases even if the pitcher has the ball in the circle. Change the situation to a runner is between 2nd and third when the pitcher gets the ball, we know the runner can legally round third and continue home. By the same rule, she could return to 2nd, and continue back toward first; as long as, in both cases, she did not STOP on a base.

So, we know the BR cannot go to 2nd (in ASA and NFHS because she turned right, in NCAA because she now retouched first base); but how is it a LBR violation if, without stopping, she continues to head in the same direction that she is legally headed? Yes, she is in jeopardy, and yes, we know the "force" is reinstated. But, what exact part of the LBR is violated??

Me, I've got a no call.

[ronald]

Well, I was the PU and my partner called her out on a LBR violation. The coach interjected that she was in continuous motion so it should not be LBR but he again stated it was a LBR vioulation. In our post game discussion I remembered something about when the ball goes into the circle and the runner continues they can not stop and reverse or she is out (NCAAW). They must stop immediately and reverse. (could be wrong so will re-read the part in question) One could argue then that this does not apply since she reversed and put the force out back in play.


Thanks, Ron

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by AtlUmpSteve

It's a lookback violation if she returns to first, stops on it, then leaves. It isn't a lookback violation if she continues on without stopping.

If I am understanding this situation correctly, the runner (in NCAA) who has overrun the base and returns within the baseline extended is not committed to advance nor return under the LBR until she 1) actively attempts toward 2nd, or 2) stops on 1st. Once she retouches 1st, she cannot advance to 2nd; but that isn't what happened here, she retreated toward home (apparently think it was a foul, or something). So, she hasn't made an attempt to 2nd, nor did she stop on first; her one legal stop and change of direction under the LBR was when she reversed and went back to first the 2nd time.

Let's say this wasn't the BR overrunning first. We say that the LBR does not require runners to stop, that when in motion they can continue in that direction indefinitely without violating, that a runner can keep circling the bases even if the pitcher has the ball in the circle. Change the situation to a runner is between 2nd and third when the pitcher gets the ball, we know the runner can legally round third and continue home. By the same rule, she could return to 2nd, and continue back toward first; as long as, in both cases, she did not STOP on a base.

So, we know the BR cannot go to 2nd (in ASA and NFHS because she turned right, in NCAA because she now retouched first base); but how is it a LBR violation if, without stopping, she continues to head in the same direction that she is legally headed? Yes, she is in jeopardy, and yes, we know the "force" is reinstated. But, what exact part of the LBR is violated??

Me, I've got a no call.

Do you see "teammates holler and she turns around" as a LBR second stop if she stops to hear the hollering and then "heads back towards 1b"?

[AtlUmpSteve]

Originally Posted by CecilOne

Do you see "teammates holler and she turns around" as a LBR second stop if she stops to hear the hollering and then "heads back towards 1b"?

No, I see that as her one stop. Turning around after overrunning isn't a stop, because the rule requires her to turn around and she still has not indicated which way she is going.

Secondarily (and much less of a factor in my initial thoughts, but still pertinent as I flesh out my thinking), once she has returned between first and home, and reinstated the "force", has she not also reinstated "not yet reached first base" status? If so, then the LBR cannot apply.

[Big Slick]

Steve, it was Ball 4, you still have a force?

Either you have her out for leaving the base while the ball is in the circle, or you call time and put her on first. Either way, you have a player being goofy and you will have to deal with a coach.

[AtlUmpSteve]

Originally Posted by Big Slick

Steve, it was Ball 4, you still have a force?

Either you have her out for leaving the base while the ball is in the circle, or you call time and put her on first. Either way, you have a player being goofy and you will have to deal with a coach.

Like most of you, I am thinking of this as I go, so I need some time to think out the force part. What I am most certain of is I don't have an out for leaving a base, anymore than I would the runner that continues past any other base without stopping.

But, I know she is on jeopardy, having gone past the status of legally overrunning; and I believe she reinstated the status of "not yet reached first. I am positive I would be thinking that on a batted ball, and don't think that she is walked changes her BR status. My next conclusion is she must be in jeopardy, but since no "force" exists on the ball 4 awrded base, that must be a case where we cannot "reinstate" that which didn't exist before.

[Dholloway1962]

Exact same scenario as posted occurred in NCAA WCWS a few years ago. Runner out on LBR.

[topper]

Originally Posted by AtlUmpSteve

It's a lookback violation if she returns to first, stops on it, then leaves. It isn't a lookback violation if she continues on without stopping.

If I am understanding this situation correctly, the runner (in NCAA) who has overrun the base and returns within the baseline extended is not committed to advance nor return under the LBR until she 1) actively attempts toward 2nd, or 2) stops on 1st. Once she retouches 1st, she cannot advance to 2nd; but that isn't what happened here, she retreated toward home (apparently think it was a foul, or something). So, she hasn't made an attempt to 2nd, nor did she stop on first; her one legal stop and change of direction under the LBR was when she reversed and went back to first the 2nd time.

Let's say this wasn't the BR overrunning first. We say that the LBR does not require runners to stop, that when in motion they can continue in that direction indefinitely without violating, that a runner can keep circling the bases even if the pitcher has the ball in the circle. Change the situation to a runner is between 2nd and third when the pitcher gets the ball, we know the runner can legally round third and continue home. By the same rule, she could return to 2nd, and continue back toward first; as long as, in both cases, she did not STOP on a base.

So, we know the BR cannot go to 2nd (in ASA and NFHS because she turned right, in NCAA because she now retouched first base); but how is it a LBR violation if, without stopping, she continues to head in the same direction that she is legally headed? Yes, she is in jeopardy, and yes, we know the "force" is reinstated. But, what exact part of the LBR is violated??

Me, I've got a no call.

The OP does say she touched 1st base on her way back. She doesn't have to "stop" there, only touch. LBR - out.

[wadeintothem]

This is not just passing a base like any other base Steve.. this is touching it once, going back to it, touching it again.. then coming off it again.

LBR out in all codes, except YSISF where it is LBR - Out - I keel you.

Definately DMR as well. Why are we trying to protect this runner?

We need a thinning of the herd and thats an out for me.

[SethPDX]

Originally Posted by wadeintothem

LBR out in all codes, except YSISF where it is LBR - Out - I keel you.

Incorrect. This violation causes you to play, um, "shorthanded."

[Tru_in_Blu]

Can the batter who receives a walk overrun 1B without liability to be put out? I thought once the batter touched 1B [LBR aside] she had received her "award". If she left the base for any reason, she would be at risk of being tagged out.

I saw a team play and when an exuberant batter received a walk, the catcher would throw the ball to F3 who had come over to the base. Often times the runner wouldn't know the ball was in F3's possession. For some reason, sometimes the younger JO girls would overrun 1B, or the BR would get there and do a little jump after toughing the base. If F3 is close enough and the runner comes off that base and is tagged, she's out.

I suppose that's the softball version of the hidden ball trick.

So I guess in the original post, other that questioning a lot of what that BR did, why would a BR overrun 1B?

Ted

[wadeintothem]

You can overrun first on a walk.

If you round it (ie attempt to advance).. you are liable to be put out.

[Dakota]

Originally Posted by Tru_in_Blu

Can the batter who receives a walk overrun 1B without liability to be put out? I thought once the batter touched 1B [LBR aside] she had received her "award". If she left the base for any reason, she would be at risk of being tagged out.

I saw a team play and when an exuberant batter received a walk, the catcher would throw the ball to F3 who had come over to the base. Often times the runner wouldn't know the ball was in F3's possession. For some reason, sometimes the younger JO girls would overrun 1B, or the BR would get there and do a little jump after toughing the base. If F3 is close enough and the runner comes off that base and is tagged, she's out.

I suppose that's the softball version of the hidden ball trick.

So I guess in the original post, other that questioning a lot of what that BR did, why would a BR overrun 1B?

Ted

Speaking ASA, and all other softball codes I know about, once a batter becomes a BR, it doesn't matter how or why she became a BR. If she can overrun on a batted ball (and, of course, she can), she can overrun on a BOB, on a D3K... she can even overrun on a HBP!

Now, once she arrives at the base and has NOT overrun, if she leaves the base (i.e. your exuberant player who jumps up), she can be tagged out while off the base.

As to why a BR would overrun on a BOB, well, the ball is live, and she may be attempting to catch the defense napping.

[Tru_in_Blu]

Originally Posted by Dakota

Speaking ASA, and all other softball codes I know about, once a batter becomes a BR, it doesn't matter how or why she became a BR. If she can overrun on a batted ball (and, of course, she can), she can overrun on a BOB, on a D3K... she can even overrun on a HBP!

Now, once she arrives at the base and has NOT overrun, if she leaves the base (i.e. your exuberant player who jumps up), she can be tagged out while off the base.

As to why a BR would overrun on a BOB, well, the ball is live, and she may be attempting to catch the defense napping.

On a batted ball to an infielder and a D3K I can understand the BR running through the base. A HBP is pointless since the ball is dead. I know a lot of times teams have a play on when a runner is on 3B and the batter gets a walk, the BR then makes a hard push to 1B and rounds the base [as opposed to running through it]. Many times the runner will continue to 2B without a throw if the defense isn't alert enough or skilled enough to defend that play.

So a BR who has a walk can "run through the base" and not be liable to be tagged out?

Thanx.

Ted

[AtlUmpSteve]

Originally Posted by topper

The OP does say she touched 1st base on her way back. She doesn't have to "stop" there, only touch. LBR - out.

Can you quote (cite) a specific line in any version of the lookback rule that supports that statement?

ASA 8-7.T(2) says "Once a player stops at a base for any reason, the runner will be declared out if leaving the base."

NFHS 8-7-3 says "Once the runner stops at a base for any reason, she will be declared out if she leaves the base.

NCAA 12-21.f(3) says "The batter-runner (sic) may not step off any base after stopping at it."

NCAA 12-21.f(4) says "The batter-runner, (sic) after overrunning first base, may not retouch the base and advance toward second."
This is the call that was made in the NCAA WCWS, not the noted play.

NCAA 12-21.f(5) says "The batter-runner, (sic) must immediately return nonstop to first base (she did), or is she does not retouch first base, must make an attempt to advance to second."

I still don't see any specific clause of the LBR violated by the BR overrunning first base, making the required return (while having NOT determined a committed direction), retouching first base legally, not advancing toward second base illegally, and, without stopping or changing direction, continuing in the one direction that no rule states it is illegal to continue. She THEN makes the one and only change of direction that applies under the LBR, which she can legally make, and returns to the base.

Okay, I do now see an out where the NCAA LBR applies, but it has NOTHING to do with the retouch, which does not violate the stopping and leaving part of the rule. It is the NCAA (only; not true in ASA or NFHS) that when a runner is in motion when the pitcher receives the ball, her only legal change of direction must happen "immediately" (NCAA 12-21.b). Both ASA and NFHS allow one legal stop and change of direction, and that can happen at any "decision" moment after the pitcher receives the ball, does not have to be immediately.

So, I now agree with an out in NCAA; for the reason that the change of direction was after the allowed "immediately."