Retreating from home

[RKBUmp]

This was brought up during high school clinic last night. Was an actual play that happened over the weekend in I believe a 12U game.

Runner on 3, batter thinks it is missed strike 3 and runs for 1st. Catcher throws to 1st, and runner at 3 comes home and scores. For whatever reason, coach yells at runner to get back to 3rd, runner resteps on home plate headed back to 3, and in the process ball is thrown to F5 who tags the runner while in between home and 3rd.

Umpire ruled that once the runner had scored she was "retired" per the rule book and was not subject to being called out. The general consensus amongst the instructors was that while not specifically addressed in the rule book, this is a DMR on the runner, and by retracing her track back across home plate on her way to 3rd, she put herself back into jeapordy of being called out.

We all searched the rule book last night for a refrence in both the ASA and NFHS rule books and couldnt find anything. Closest I could find was the force being reinstated after retreating from a base already touched.

Opinions?

[azbigdawg]

Originally Posted by RKBUmp

This was brought up during high school clinic last night. Was an actual play that happened over the weekend in I believe a 12U game.

Runner on 3, batter thinks it is missed strike 3 and runs for 1st. Catcher throws to 1st, and runner at 3 comes home and scores. For whatever reason, coach yells at runner to get back to 3rd, runner resteps on home plate headed back to 3, and in the process ball is thrown to F5 who tags the runner while in between home and 3rd.

Umpire ruled that once the runner had scored she was "retired" per the rule book and was not subject to being called out. The general consensus amongst the instructors was that while not specifically addressed in the rule book, this is a DMR on the runner, and by retracing her track back across home plate on her way to 3rd, she put herself back into jeapordy of being called out.

We all searched the rule book last night for a refrence in both the ASA and NFHS rule books and couldnt find anything. Closest I could find was the force being reinstated after retreating from a base already touched.

Opinions?

Ive got a couple of phone calls in on this one, and Im gonna look it up a little later. I will let you know what I come up with.

[MGKBLUE]

For NFHS refer to the case book 9.1.1 Situation B.

The ruling is the runner is not out. Once a runner legally touches the plate, the runner cannot be put out, even if the runner attempts to return to a preceding base.

Although I do not have a case play for ASA, I believe that the run would count under Rule 5.5. "One run shall be scored each time a runner touches first, second, thrid and home plate."

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by RKBUmp

This was brought up during high school clinic last night. Was an actual play that happened over the weekend in I believe a 12U game.

Runner on 3, batter thinks it is missed strike 3 and runs for 1st. Catcher throws to 1st, and runner at 3 comes home and scores. For whatever reason, coach yells at runner to get back to 3rd, runner resteps on home plate headed back to 3, and in the process ball is thrown to F5 who tags the runner while in between home and 3rd.

Umpire ruled that once the runner had scored she was "retired" per the rule book and was not subject to being called out. The general consensus amongst the instructors was that while not specifically addressed in the rule book, this is a DMR on the runner, and by retracing her track back across home plate on her way to 3rd, she put herself back into jeapordy of being called out.

We all searched the rule book last night for a refrence in both the ASA and NFHS rule books and couldnt find anything. Closest I could find was the force being reinstated after retreating from a base already touched.

Opinions?

I don't think you are going to find such a reference for ASA.

However, if you are not going to call the runner out because she has already scored, are you willing to call INT for drawing a throw IF THIS OCCURRED during a valid play with other runners attempting to advance?

[RKBUmp]

According the the case cited above, no, unless the umpire deems it to be an intentional act to draw the throw. Then runner closest to home called out and runner who drew throw is ejected for unsportsman like conduct.

[whiskers_ump]

Originally Posted by RKBUmp

According the the case cited above, no, unless the umpire deems it to be an intentional act to draw the throw. Then runner closest to home called out and runner who drew throw is ejected for unsportsman like conduct.

In NFHS you gonna eject her?

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by RKBUmp

According the the case cited above, no, unless the umpire deems it to be an intentional act to draw the throw. Then runner closest to home called out and runner who drew throw is ejected for unsportsman like conduct.

No intent required in ASA

[DeputyUICHousto]

I think the only way you could get an out would be if the runner from 3rd was forced. ASA has a stipulation that if a runner in a force situation retreats for any reason the force would be reinstated. However, this isn't a force situatoin.

[Tru_in_Blu]

Instead of a dropped third strike, say it was a fly ball to the center field fence that the runner thought wasn't going to be caught? But the ball is caught. If she has crossed home plate [and no subsequent runner followed her there] can't she retrace her steps by touching HP and trying to retreat to 3B before a live ball appeal is made?

She has "scored" and if no appeal was made the run would count. But having scored, and knowing she was way off the base at the time of the catch, she should be able to try to get back to 3B.

Yes?

Ted

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

No intent required in ASA

Or anywhere else, as far as I know.

[RKBUmp]

Cecil, per the NFHS case cited, they say if the runner retracing back to 3rd draws a throw that lets another runner advance, it is not to be ruled interference unless deemed to be intentional by the umpire. In the case study, the base coach thought the runner had missed 3rd and recalled her to the base, drawing a throw from the outfield that allowed the batter to move to 2nd. Since the act of returning to 3rd was not intentional, there is no intererence.

However, per ASA, if a retired runner draws a throw that allows a runner to advance it is interference and closest runner to home is out.

[Andy]

I came into this last night at the follow up HS rules meeting with RKB.

This is actually one of the plays I was going to talk about in my OBS/INT clinc tomorrow morning.

I'm going to cite NFHS rules since I have that book in front of me. If I put together a few rules and some "read between the lines" this is what I come up with:

Rule 2-49: a run is scored when an offensive player legally advances to and touches home plate

Rule 8-6-18: Runner is out...after being declared out or scoring a runner intentionally interferes with a defensive player's opportunity to make a play on another runner.

(read between the lines disclaimer - I believe this is intended more for the retired runner from first base that reaches out and knocks down the relay throw to first after the front end of a double play)

A runner continuing to run and drawing a throw may be considered a form of interference with the exception of the batter-runner running on the dropped third strike rule.

(read between the lines disclaimer - Per the definition of interference, the act does not have to be intentional, it just has to interfere. The penalty is that the ball is dead and the runner closest to home is declared out.

Rule 9-9-1 defines how a team scores and basically restate 2-49 as cited above. None of the exceptions listed for 9-9-1 include a runner who has legally scored retreating back across home for any reason. I can't find anywhere in the book that allows for a run to be "unscored" once it has legally scored.

So, without seeing the play, I count the run, call interference on the runner that scored, and declare the runner closest to home out.

In my opinion, the case play does not match up with the wording of the rule.

Without looking at the ASA book, I believe this interp would be the same as I can't recall any differences in these rules between NFHS and ASA.