Retreating from home

[RKBUmp]

This was brought up during high school clinic last night. Was an actual play that happened over the weekend in I believe a 12U game.

Runner on 3, batter thinks it is missed strike 3 and runs for 1st. Catcher throws to 1st, and runner at 3 comes home and scores. For whatever reason, coach yells at runner to get back to 3rd, runner resteps on home plate headed back to 3, and in the process ball is thrown to F5 who tags the runner while in between home and 3rd.

Umpire ruled that once the runner had scored she was "retired" per the rule book and was not subject to being called out. The general consensus amongst the instructors was that while not specifically addressed in the rule book, this is a DMR on the runner, and by retracing her track back across home plate on her way to 3rd, she put herself back into jeapordy of being called out.

We all searched the rule book last night for a refrence in both the ASA and NFHS rule books and couldnt find anything. Closest I could find was the force being reinstated after retreating from a base already touched.

Opinions?

[azbigdawg]

Originally Posted by RKBUmp

This was brought up during high school clinic last night. Was an actual play that happened over the weekend in I believe a 12U game.

Runner on 3, batter thinks it is missed strike 3 and runs for 1st. Catcher throws to 1st, and runner at 3 comes home and scores. For whatever reason, coach yells at runner to get back to 3rd, runner resteps on home plate headed back to 3, and in the process ball is thrown to F5 who tags the runner while in between home and 3rd.

Umpire ruled that once the runner had scored she was "retired" per the rule book and was not subject to being called out. The general consensus amongst the instructors was that while not specifically addressed in the rule book, this is a DMR on the runner, and by retracing her track back across home plate on her way to 3rd, she put herself back into jeapordy of being called out.

We all searched the rule book last night for a refrence in both the ASA and NFHS rule books and couldnt find anything. Closest I could find was the force being reinstated after retreating from a base already touched.

Opinions?

Ive got a couple of phone calls in on this one, and Im gonna look it up a little later. I will let you know what I come up with.

[MGKBLUE]

For NFHS refer to the case book 9.1.1 Situation B.

The ruling is the runner is not out. Once a runner legally touches the plate, the runner cannot be put out, even if the runner attempts to return to a preceding base.

Although I do not have a case play for ASA, I believe that the run would count under Rule 5.5. "One run shall be scored each time a runner touches first, second, thrid and home plate."

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by RKBUmp

This was brought up during high school clinic last night. Was an actual play that happened over the weekend in I believe a 12U game.

Runner on 3, batter thinks it is missed strike 3 and runs for 1st. Catcher throws to 1st, and runner at 3 comes home and scores. For whatever reason, coach yells at runner to get back to 3rd, runner resteps on home plate headed back to 3, and in the process ball is thrown to F5 who tags the runner while in between home and 3rd.

Umpire ruled that once the runner had scored she was "retired" per the rule book and was not subject to being called out. The general consensus amongst the instructors was that while not specifically addressed in the rule book, this is a DMR on the runner, and by retracing her track back across home plate on her way to 3rd, she put herself back into jeapordy of being called out.

We all searched the rule book last night for a refrence in both the ASA and NFHS rule books and couldnt find anything. Closest I could find was the force being reinstated after retreating from a base already touched.

Opinions?

I don't think you are going to find such a reference for ASA.

However, if you are not going to call the runner out because she has already scored, are you willing to call INT for drawing a throw IF THIS OCCURRED during a valid play with other runners attempting to advance?

[RKBUmp]

According the the case cited above, no, unless the umpire deems it to be an intentional act to draw the throw. Then runner closest to home called out and runner who drew throw is ejected for unsportsman like conduct.

[whiskers_ump]

Originally Posted by RKBUmp

According the the case cited above, no, unless the umpire deems it to be an intentional act to draw the throw. Then runner closest to home called out and runner who drew throw is ejected for unsportsman like conduct.

In NFHS you gonna eject her?

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by RKBUmp

According the the case cited above, no, unless the umpire deems it to be an intentional act to draw the throw. Then runner closest to home called out and runner who drew throw is ejected for unsportsman like conduct.

No intent required in ASA

[DeputyUICHousto]

I think the only way you could get an out would be if the runner from 3rd was forced. ASA has a stipulation that if a runner in a force situation retreats for any reason the force would be reinstated. However, this isn't a force situatoin.

[Tru_in_Blu]

Instead of a dropped third strike, say it was a fly ball to the center field fence that the runner thought wasn't going to be caught? But the ball is caught. If she has crossed home plate [and no subsequent runner followed her there] can't she retrace her steps by touching HP and trying to retreat to 3B before a live ball appeal is made?

She has "scored" and if no appeal was made the run would count. But having scored, and knowing she was way off the base at the time of the catch, she should be able to try to get back to 3B.

Yes?

Ted

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by Tru_in_Blu

Instead of a dropped third strike, say it was a fly ball to the center field fence that the runner thought wasn't going to be caught? But the ball is caught. If she has crossed home plate [and no subsequent runner followed her there] can't she retrace her steps by touching HP and trying to retreat to 3B before a live ball appeal is made?

She has "scored" and if no appeal was made the run would count. But having scored, and knowing she was way off the base at the time of the catch, she should be able to try to get back to 3B.

Yes?

Ted

Yes, the runner can retreat to a base left too soon.

[Dakota]

Originally Posted by Tru_in_Blu

Instead of a dropped third strike, say it was a fly ball to the center field fence that the runner thought wasn't going to be caught? But the ball is caught. If she has crossed home plate [and no subsequent runner followed her there] can't she retrace her steps by touching HP and trying to retreat to 3B before a live ball appeal is made?

She has "scored" and if no appeal was made the run would count. But having scored, and knowing she was way off the base at the time of the catch, she should be able to try to get back to 3B.

Yes?

Ted

Yes, so long as she did not enter dead ball territory, and a following runner did not also score.

[AtlUmpSteve]

Originally Posted by Dakota

Yes, so long as she did not enter dead ball territory, and a following runner did not also score.

You did mean or not and, right?

[Dakota]

Originally Posted by AtlUmpSteve

You did mean or not and, right?

Yeah... and and/or or...

One or the other, but both also works...

[wadeintothem]

This is a pretty good one. The status of a runner who has scored seems in question - but I dont know that that is the big the question. The big question is the score.

Rule 5.5.1 - A run scores when...

So are there any criteria which would negate that score?

There is no legit appeal being made, so there is no rule negating the run scoring .. ie the score is in the books. The runner could do any number of things, Interfere (were something else going on), get ejected, do a hand stand, beg the umpire not to score the score because they dont want to play extra innings and want to go home, purposely return to 3rd to prevent the score to prevent run rule.

But they cant.

It's in the book. The ruling on the field was essentially correct in my view, with the exception that I dont believe the status of the runner is the big question - the big question is can that runner do anything at that point to unring the scoring bell?

Barring an appeal sitiation, I dont believe they can.

[RKBUmp]

Still havent found anything in the ASA rule book that covers this situation, but obviously we have the case play in the NFHS book that does. While it is addressed, not sure I necessarily agree with the reasoning of it. At every other base, the runner through some dumb act can put themselves back in jeapordy of being put out. Yet as soon as they legally touch all bases and home the run is "in the book" and cant be erased, no matter what act the runner may make. The only thing she can do at that point is put a succeeding runner at risk by drawing a throw, assisting etc.

It would seem to me that if for what ever reason the runner is dumb enough to backtrack across home headed back to third they would have put themselves back in jeapordy. But, I didnt make the rules and will call it by the book if this situation ever comes up.