Fair/foul call

[wadeintothem]

hmm.. maybe an east coast thing with your neck slice double fist pump outs and stuff.

I've never heard it in a clinic, seen it in a NFHS exam or in their case book.

[Tru_in_Blu]

I found this in the [ASA] Umpire Case Book 2007:

PLAY 1-42
B1 hits a pop fly between 1B and 2B, and the ball falls untouched to the ground about six feet beyond the base line. The ball has backspin and rolls across the foul line about ten feet from home plate, where it is first touched by F3. B1 advances to 2B on the play.
RULING: This is a fair ball because it first touches the ground beyond the bases in fair territory. B1 remains at 2B and is credited with a couble. (1-FAIR BALL-F)

And here is 1 - FAIR BALL:

FAIR BALL: A legally batted ball that:
A. Settles or is touched on or over fair territory between home and first
base or between home and third base.
B. Bounds over or past first or third base, which is in fair territory, regardless
of where the ball hits after going over the base.
C. While on or over fair territory, touches the person, attached equipment
or clothing of a player or an umpire.
D. While over fair territory, an runner offensive player interferes with a
defensive player attempting to field a batted ball.
E. Touches first, second or third base.
F. First falls or is first touched on or over fair territory beyond first, second or third base.
G. While over fair territory, passes out of the playing field beyond the
outfield fence.
H. Hits the foul pole.

So a ball that touches first, second or third base is fair regardless of what happens after that. Conside the ball that hits the pitcher's plate and bounds off foul between either 1B or 3B and home. An unlikely play would be a line drive that hits 2B on the fly and ricohets to foul territory between either 1B or 3B and home.

But the spinning popup "beyond the bases in fair territory" and then spins off into foul ground between either 1B or 3B and home is a bit less intuitive.

This one I would have gotten wrong.

Ted

[bkbjones]

If the score is 91-0 and calling it foul would prevent the 91s from scoring more runs, I have a foul ball.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by Tru_in_Blu

I found this in the [ASA] Umpire Case Book 2007:

PLAY 1-42
B1 hits a pop fly between 1B and 2B, and the ball falls untouched to the ground about six feet beyond the base line. The ball has backspin and rolls across the foul line about ten feet from home plate, where it is first touched by F3. B1 advances to 2B on the play.
RULING: This is a fair ball because it first touches the ground beyond the bases in fair territory. B1 remains at 2B and is credited with a couble. (1-FAIR BALL-F)

And here is 1 - FAIR BALL:

FAIR BALL: A legally batted ball that:
A. Settles or is touched on or over fair territory between home and first
base or between home and third base.
B. Bounds over or past first or third base, which is in fair territory, regardless
of where the ball hits after going over the base.
C. While on or over fair territory, touches the person, attached equipment
or clothing of a player or an umpire.
D. While over fair territory, an runner offensive player interferes with a
defensive player attempting to field a batted ball.
E. Touches first, second or third base.
F. First falls or is first touched on or over fair territory beyond first, second or third base.
G. While over fair territory, passes out of the playing field beyond the
outfield fence.
H. Hits the foul pole.

So a ball that touches first, second or third base is fair regardless of what happens after that. Conside the ball that hits the pitcher's plate and bounds off foul between either 1B or 3B and home. An unlikely play would be a line drive that hits 2B on the fly and ricohets to foul territory between either 1B or 3B and home.

But the spinning popup "beyond the bases in fair territory" and then spins off into foul ground between either 1B or 3B and home is a bit less intuitive.

This one I would have gotten wrong.

Ted

Not seeing any emoticons, I just have one question. Huh?

[Tru_in_Blu]

Hi Irish,

What's there to emote about? Most of my post is the rules and case play. The scenario of a ball hitting the pitcher's plate and going foul would be a foul ball and the line drive hitting 2B and going foul would be a fair ball. [Both cases rolling foul between 1b or 3b and home.]

The part I would have erred on was the ball falling beyond the base line and then spinning to foul territory. I would have incorrectly ruled this as a foul ball. Fortunately, I haven't had to make that call, and in 30 years as a player, don't recall seeing such a play.

I don't do NFHS but have read here that their wording needs some improvement in regards to this situation.

Ted

[wadeintothem]

Originally Posted by Tru_in_Blu

The part I would have erred on was the ball falling beyond the base line and then spinning to foul territory. I would have incorrectly ruled this as a foul ball. Fortunately, I haven't had to make that call, and in 30 years as a player, don't recall seeing such a play.

You are very difficult to follow in your presentation. How I understand your post, going beyond the bases/baseline? then spinning (rolling?) foul...that happens just about every game.

If you are confused, take some time and spell out clearly the part that is confusing you, then that can be specifically addressed.

[Tru_in_Blu]

OK, I'll try to be clear. I've seen many times a blooper down a line that hits beyond the base in fair territory that then kicks foul - and this is a fair ball.

I've seen many times a popup in the infield that lands originally in fair territory but then rolls foul between 1B or 3B and home untouched - this is a foul ball.

I've not seen a ball that has landed beyond the base line [defined as beyond base line from 1B to 2B or 2B to 3B] in fair territory and then rolled foul between 1B or 3B and home untouched. This would be a fair ball. And this is the call I would have made a mistake on had I not followed this discussion. And I certainly don't see THAT in every game I do.

I first wondered about this when I read the casebook play 1-42.

Hope that helps. It's helped me.

Ted

[MNBlue]

Originally Posted by Tru_in_Blu

I've not seen a ball that has landed beyond the base line [defined as beyond base line from 1B to 2B or 2B to 3B] in fair territory and then rolled foul between 1B or 3B and home untouched. Ted

That's because those types of fly balls are usually caught for outs.

[BretMan]

For what it's worth (and it's not worth much on a softball rules forum), I can confirm that in FED baseball the "imaginary line" running from first to third base is used for determining a fair or foul call. This is spelled out in their "Base Hit/Fair Ball" definition under rule 2.

I've never found such an interpretation for softball, but can imagine some confusion arising in associations that handle umpire training, registration and certification for both baseball and softball.

[Tru_in_Blu]

That's because those types of fly balls are usually caught for outs.

Or, in a lot of JO play where I see a lot of balls allowed to hit the ground, someone then picks it up before it actually rolls very far.

Ted

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by Tru_in_Blu

OK, I'll try to be clear. I've seen many times a blooper down a line that hits beyond the base in fair territory that then kicks foul - and this is a fair ball.

I've seen many times a popup in the infield that lands originally in fair territory but then rolls foul between 1B or 3B and home untouched - this is a foul ball.

I've not seen a ball that has landed beyond the base line [defined as beyond base line from 1B to 2B or 2B to 3B] in fair territory and then rolled foul between 1B or 3B and home untouched. This would be a fair ball. And this is the call I would have made a mistake on had I not followed this discussion. And I certainly don't see THAT in every game I do.

I first wondered about this when I read the casebook play 1-42.

Hope that helps. It's helped me.

Ted

Thank you. And you are correct, you don't see that happen often. But those are the calls where the umpire earns their money and respect of their peers.

[jmkupka]

"PLAY 1-42
B1 hits a pop fly between 1B and 2B, and the ball falls untouched to the ground about six feet beyond the base line. The ball has backspin and rolls across the foul line about ten feet from home plate, where it is first touched by F3. B1 advances to 2B on the play.
RULING: This is a fair ball because it first touches the ground beyond the bases in fair territory. B1 remains at 2B and is credited with a couble. (1-FAIR BALL-F)"


My OP had the ball land beyond the triangle of HP, 1B & 3B, but the above play does verify that there is a point beyond which the ball can land, spin back and roll foul (short of 1b) and be considered fair. Correct?

[SethPDX]

Originally Posted by jmkupka

"PLAY 1-42
B1 hits a pop fly between 1B and 2B, and the ball falls untouched to the ground about six feet beyond the base line. The ball has backspin and rolls across the foul line about ten feet from home plate, where it is first touched by F3. B1 advances to 2B on the play.
RULING: This is a fair ball because it first touches the ground beyond the bases in fair territory. B1 remains at 2B and is credited with a couble. (1-FAIR BALL-F)"


My OP had the ball land beyond the triangle of HP, 1B & 3B, but the above play does verify that there is a point beyond which the ball can land, spin back and roll foul (short of 1b) and be considered fair. Correct?

Yes. That point is beyond the baselines, from the ruling given.

[SRW]

Originally Posted by jmkupka

... B1 remains at 2B and is credited with a couble. (1-FAIR BALL-F)"

What's a couble?

[Skahtboi]

Originally Posted by SRW

What's a couble?

?