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  #16 (permalink)  
Old Thu Aug 28, 2008, 04:12pm
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"without liability to be put out" does not mean "without liability to be declared out"

NCAA uses similar language, so I would presume it also does not consider the entitlement to advance to be an award.

I think that runners are indeed "awarded" bases to which they are forced when the batter is awarded a base on balls.

Example in FP: R1 on 2B, R2 on 1B, 1 out. R2 runs on the 3-2 pitch, but R1 misses the sign and does not run. Ball 4 to batter. R2 rounds 2B and passes R1. R2 is declared out. R1, however, still goes to 3B even though she is no longer forced and the ball is live. Thus, this is an award.

Example in FP: Bases loaded, 1 out. Ball 4 to batter. Batter runs directly into the dugout and is declared out. The other 3 runners are no longer forced, but they still advance to the bases they were awarded.

I had an illustrative play a few years ago:

R1 on 3B, R2 on 2B, 1 out. B3 hits a liner down the LF line, not too deep. R1 takes a few steps toward home, and R2 tags at 2B. F7 makes a nice catch and quickly fires the ball to F5 in an attempt to get the returning R1. As R1 returns to 3B, he covers his head with his arms to defend himself from the hard throw. The throw gets away and goes into the dugout. I (BU) award both runners home. R2, seeing the ball go into DBT and unaware that R1 is still on 3B asking what happened, passes R1.

Both R1 and R2 were permitted to advance to home without liability to be put out. However, R2 was declared out for the third out, so R1 cannot score, even though he had been awarded home.
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Last edited by greymule; Thu Aug 28, 2008 at 04:24pm.
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  #17 (permalink)  
Old Thu Aug 28, 2008, 09:14pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by greymule
"without liability to be put out" does not mean "without liability to be declared out"
Nor does it mean award

Quote:
NCAA uses similar language, so I would presume it also does not consider the entitlement to advance to be an award.
Quote:

I think that runners are indeed "awarded" bases to which they are forced when the batter is awarded a base on balls.

Example in FP: R1 on 2B, R2 on 1B, 1 out. R2 runs on the 3-2 pitch, but R1 misses the sign and does not run. Ball 4 to batter. R2 rounds 2B and passes R1. R2 is declared out. R1, however, still goes to 3B even though she is no longer forced and the ball is live. Thus, this is an award.

Example in FP: Bases loaded, 1 out. Ball 4 to batter. Batter runs directly into the dugout and is declared out. The other 3 runners are no longer forced, but they still advance to the bases they were awarded.
Or the rulings are based upon the order in which the different events (walk and then passing the runner).

Quote:

I had an illustrative play a few years ago:

R1 on 3B, R2 on 2B, 1 out. B3 hits a liner down the LF line, not too deep. R1 takes a few steps toward home, and R2 tags at 2B. F7 makes a nice catch and quickly fires the ball to F5 in an attempt to get the returning R1. As R1 returns to 3B, he covers his head with his arms to defend himself from the hard throw. The throw gets away and goes into the dugout. I (BU) award both runners home. R2, seeing the ball go into DBT and unaware that R1 is still on 3B asking what happened, passes R1.

Both R1 and R2 were permitted to advance to home without liability to be put out. However, R2 was declared out for the third out, so R1 cannot score, even though he had been awarded home.
Why would you call a runner out for passing when the ball was dead?
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Old Thu Aug 28, 2008, 10:50pm
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This is a messy situation. It sounds like (since ASA does not have a case directly on point like NFHS) that the runners are ENTITLED to advance without liability, but are not REQUIRED to, if that makes sense. IOW, what if in the OP, R2 advanced to 3B and R1 just walked into the dugout instead of going to home? Inning over, R1 does not score? So it seems that R1 does not automatically GET a run by virtue of 8.5.A, she is entitled to advance without being PUT out, but she still has to fulfill her baserunning obligations correctly (touching home in my example, or touching home before something else happens to end the inning in the OP. And in the OP, the inning did not end by any of the runners being put out while they were entitled to advance without liability; the inning certainly did not end by R1 being put out, so the inning-ending out would not violate her entitlement to advance without liability.

Seems like if R1 is dumb enough to hang around the basepath long enough, there are a number of things that could occur that would end the inning before she got her run by crossing home.

Just thinking aloud, trying to see if I got it straight. All periods in the preceding sentences may be replaced with question marks.
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  #19 (permalink)  
Old Thu Aug 28, 2008, 11:20pm
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Why would you call a runner out for passing when the ball was dead?

Because it's the correct ruling. 8-7-D does not, as 8-7-E does for physical assist, stipulate that the ball must be live.
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Last edited by greymule; Thu Aug 28, 2008 at 11:25pm.
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  #20 (permalink)  
Old Fri Aug 29, 2008, 07:32am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by greymule
Why would you call a runner out for passing when the ball was dead?

Because it's the correct ruling. 8-7-D does not, as 8-7-E does for physical assist, stipulate that the ball must be live.
8.7.D When a runner physically passes a preceding runner before that runner has been called out. If this was the third out of the inning, any runs scored prior to the out for passing a preceding runner.
Effect: The ball is live. The runner who passes the preceding runner is out.

RS #39 ...the ball remains live.

While I agree, there is no specific wording stating the ball must be live at the time of the passing, the rules do state that the ball IS live or REMAINS live. Well, that cannot be if the ball has been declared dead. If a ball goes out of play and the umpire sees a runner pass another, s/he doesn't automatically declare the ball live at that point.
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  #21 (permalink)  
Old Fri Aug 29, 2008, 08:06am
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I'm aware of the statements in "Effect" and RS39. I believe that ASA's statements "the ball is live" and "the ball remains live" would be more accurately worded "if the ball is live at the time of the infraction, it remains live." Otherwise, why insert "while the ball is live" into 8-7-E?

If a ball goes out of play and the umpire sees a runner pass another, s/he doesn't automatically declare the ball live at that point.

Obviously not. I didn't say that a dead ball becomes live when a runner passes another. The umpire does declare the passing runner out, though.

R1 on 1B. Batter hits a low liner that caroms off F3's foot and into DBT. BR subsequently passes R1 between 1B and 2B.

I'm calling the BR out.

If memory serves, the ASA case book (unfortunately not accessible to me at the moment) gives at least one example of a play in which a runner is called out for passing another runner when the ball is dead.
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  #22 (permalink)  
Old Fri Aug 29, 2008, 10:35am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by greymule
I'm aware of the statements in "Effect" and RS39. I believe that ASA's statements "the ball is live" and "the ball remains live" would be more accurately worded "if the ball is live at the time of the infraction, it remains live." Otherwise, why insert "while the ball is live" into 8-7-E?
This is a reasonable understanding... that is, they are saying the infraction is not a dead ball infraction (like interference). The ball remains live so the defense can continue to make plays. I would not necessarily take this to mean that the ball must be live for the rule to be in effect.

HOWEVER, there are some obvious (to me, anyway) cases where you would NOT make this call during a dead ball. Foul ball, for example. Runners are in the process of slowing/stopping to return to their bases after a foul ball and the trailing runner passes the lead runner. Out? I don't think so.
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  #23 (permalink)  
Old Fri Aug 29, 2008, 10:41am
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Speaking USSSA (back to the OP)

NFHS CASE BOOK
8.1.1 SITUATION F: With two outs, the bases loaded and a three-and-two count on B6, the next pitch is a wild pitch. R1 begins advancing to home. R2, on second base, is off with the pitch. She rounds third base, but is caught off the base by an excellent throw by F2 for the third out. R1 had not touched home when R2 was tagged out at third. RULING: R1 was awarded home as soon as the fourth ball was declared. Consequently, as soon as R1 touches the plate, her run counts. (8-4-3a Effect)

USSSA 2007 CASE BOOK
BALL FOUR
SITUATION C: With two outs, the bases loaded and a three-and-two count on B6, the next pitch is a wild
pitch. R1 begins advancing to home. R2, on second base, is off with the pitch. She rounds third base, but is
caught off the base by an excellent throw by F6 for the third out. R1 had not touched home when R2 was
tagged out at third.
RULING: R1 became entitled to home as soon as ball four was declared. Consequently, as soon as R1
touches the plate, her run counts. (9-15-D-4)



Looks like U-trip copied the NFHS rule verbatim, except for the use of the change of "was awarded home" to "became entitled to" in the last sentence.
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  #24 (permalink)  
Old Fri Aug 29, 2008, 10:47am
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Additionally, I think you need this rule to deal with some potentially weird situations.

Runner on 1st. Ball is popped up to the first baseman. Runner tags and br makes it down to first with the ball in the air. F9 loses the ball in the sun. When it falls the fielder thinks that if he hustles he's got a play at second and in his exuberance throws into the third base dugout.

Dead ball, runners to second and third. Now suppose it's a close game and the runner on first is faster so the coach sends him to third instead of the other runner. This is the rule that prevents such a travesty, isn't it?
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Last edited by youngump; Mon Sep 19, 2011 at 06:22pm.
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  #25 (permalink)  
Old Fri Aug 29, 2008, 10:49am
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ASA 2007 Case plays on runner passing while the ball is dead (both are home runs)...

Quote:
PLAY 8.8-15
With two outs and R1 on 3B, R2 on 2B, R3 on 1B, B4 hits the ball over the fence for a home run. R1 and R2 score, however, R3 misses 3B and when returning to touch it, B4 passes R3.
RULING: Both R1 and R2 score. Even though the ball is dead when it leaves the park on the home run, B4 cannot pass R3. This is a ‘‘Time’’ play and two runs score. EXCEPTION: Men’s Class A, CO-ED Major and Women’s Open SP. (5-5A; 8-7D)

PLAY 8.8-17
With two outs in the bottom of the seventh inning, home team behind by one run and R1 on 3B, R2 on 1B, B5 hits a home run over fence. R1 scores from 3B and R2 takes a few steps toward 2B and stops seeing the ball clear the fence. R2 starts celebrating and heads toward the foul line to congratulate B5 who is on the way to 1B. B5 passes R2 about 10 feet from 1B.
RULING: B5 is called out for passing R2. Since the third out of the inning was on the batter-runner before reaching 1B, R1’s run is nullified and the game is over. EXCEPTION: Men’s Class A, Major and Women’s Open SP. (5-5A & B; 8-7D)
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Old Fri Aug 29, 2008, 11:20am
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Thinking about this a bit more...

There are two kinds of dead ball (this is my invention, so bear with me):

1) Those where the base running rules are in effect, and
2) Those where the base running rules are suspended.

In the first category are home runs and any situation where bases are awarded.

In the second category are foul balls, offensive and defensive conferences, and your general time out (F2 and F1 confer, that sort of thing).

In the first category, 8-7-D applies, but not in the second.
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Old Fri Aug 29, 2008, 11:48am
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I'll admit I hijacked this one, but let's have a little more fun with this. Put down whichever rule book you are reading and think about this.

What is the difference of a runner passing another on a foul ball and a blocked or overthrown ball?

Remember, we've all been taught than once the ball is ruled dead, nothing is supposed to happen. Pitchers cannot pitch, batter cannot hit, runners cannot advance, nor be put out. Any rulings involving the pitch, hit, running of bases or execution of an out which occurs during a dead-ball period is supposed to be base upon the occurences prior to the ball being declared dead.

So, if a B2 passes R1 at first on a ball which is heading over the fence, s/he is out if the ball is declared fair, but not out if the ball is declared foul. What's the difference if the act occured while the fly ball was still in play? Is the runner only ruled out if the RF reaches over the fence in foul territory and makes the catch? Is this a retroactive type of call? What if the BR thinks it is a foul ball, turns left around R1 on the base heading back to the plate only to have the wind bring it back into play? Is that runner allowed to retreat back behind R1 to what and see if the ball is fair? Okay, that's a little TWP, but not beyond the realm of possibility.

In certain levels of SP, the runners are not required to run the bases. However, if there is a pass during the flight of the HR ball, is that runner out even though the rule states that they are not required to run the bases? The only exception noted are appeals and passing a runner is not an appeal. Again, the passing occured during live ball play, not after the ball became dead.

Let's assume the runners cannot pass another runner on awarded bases. When does the award kick in? Is it automatic as soon as the ball enters DBT? Am I out of line if I say that most, if not all, organizations direct their umpires to hesitate in making awards until after runners have been given the opportunity to complete any baserunning tasks that may be available to them? Along those lines, would not the award be an award only when the umpire announces it? If that were the case, what difference would it make if one runner happened to step past another during a dead ball period as long as it is corrected prior to touching the next base?

Please note, I'm not disagreeing with anyone's view, offered ruling, opinion or the given interpretations, just talking aloud about how they came to be.
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Old Fri Aug 29, 2008, 01:26pm
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I think the theoretical questions Mike poses are good ones. There are certainly dead ball situations in which nothing can happen, and there are dead ball situations in which runners have to meet certain responsibilities. And I know that there are plays for which I would not follow the letter of the law.

To my knowledge, ASA is alone in using the time of the award as a distinguishing point. For example: Batter hits a ball off the fence, misses 1B, touches 2B, and is on his way to 3B when the throw from the outfield appears to be in time to get him. But the throw bounces through and hits DBT a moment before the BR slides into 3B. The umpire awards home. In ASA, that runner can return to 2B, correct his error at 1B, and then take his award. This is because the runner did not advance to the next base after the award was made. (This way of handling such a play is relatively new in ASA.) In OBR, he cannot correct his error, because he advanced to the next base (3B) after the ball became dead. (In Fed, he cannot correct his error, but for a different reason: when the ball became dead, he was on or beyond the base in advance of the base where he committed the error.)

So, if a B2 passes R1 at first on a ball which is heading over the fence, s/he is out if the ball is declared fair, but not out if the ball is declared foul.

That would be the logical ruling, but in fact, in ASA, if B2 passes R1 before the ball becomes foul (ie, while it is still in the air and live), B2 is out. A few years ago, I submitted that play on this forum merely to assure myself that ASA's ruling was the same as OBR's (foul ball, passing is irrelevant). However, the answer I got was that B2 was out, so I checked with ASA, and to my surprise they said the same thing: the runner is out if the passing occurs while the ball is still in the air; otherwise, it's merely a foul ball.

In certain levels of SP, the runners are not required to run the bases. However, if there is a pass during the flight of the HR ball, is that runner out even though the rule states that they are not required to run the bases? The only exception noted are appeals and passing a runner is not an appeal. Again, the passing occured during live ball play, not after the ball became dead.

ASA told me that, even where the runners don't have to run the bases, the runner passing is out if the passing occurs before the ball hits over the fence. I was not aware that appeals were allowed. (What would an appeal be for? Missing 1B while the ball was still in the air?)

However, I've learned that what ASA tells you is not necessarily absolute. I was UIC at an ASA regional qualifier this summer, and I spent a lot of time with a high official of ASA, watching the mechanics of the umpires and discussing rules. According to this fellow, several questions on this year's ASA test were not only misleading, but just plain wrong, including the play in which the BR accidentally kicks an uncaught third strike that had bounced off F2 and out in front of the plate. I suggested that the play where the defense can't get an advantageous fourth out on a runner who didn't score also falls into that category, and he said it might. Apparently one of the people constructing questions had misinterpreted some rules, and the questions weren't given a final and authoritative review. (How true is all this? Who knows?)
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  #29 (permalink)  
Old Fri Aug 29, 2008, 02:03pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by greymule
According to this fellow, several questions on this year's ASA test were not only misleading, but just plain wrong, including the play in which the BR accidentally kicks an uncaught third strike that had bounced off F2 and out in front of the plate. I suggested that the play where the defense can't get an advantageous fourth out on a runner who didn't score also falls into that category, and he said it might. Apparently one of the people constructing questions had misinterpreted some rules, and the questions weren't given a final and authoritative review. (How true is all this? Who knows?)
Don't know to whom you were speaking, but the council members disagree with him. I have proposed rule changes to cover both situations over the pass couple of years and both were soundly squashed in committee and I'm not going to put a hold on a vote for which I have no chance of getting the consensus changed.

So, the test probably wasn't wrong, this individual just doesn't agree with the answers.
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Old Fri Aug 29, 2008, 02:18pm
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Interesting.

Funny thing was, this official posed a question that apparently came from his recent rules discussion with other ASA people: Uncaught strike 3 bounces off F2 and rolls in front of the plate. BR starts to run to 1B and inadvertently kicks the ball into DBT. What base do you award the BR?

When I answered that this year's test posed practically the identical situation, and the answer was that the batter was out for INT, he told me that the test question was wrong. So I agreed that I didn't like the INT ruling and said I would award the batter 1B only. He said that I was correct, because the interpretation was that a pitch, not a thrown ball, had gone out of play.

At your next meeting, see what you can do about that play where the BR deliberately clotheslines F3 after the runner from 3B crosses the plate.

I would recommend (1) a stipulation that if a runner or BR commits INT before the BR reaches 1B, all runners return TOP, with the runner closest to home still out on deliberate INT, and (2) a runner who has crossed the plate before INT on a fly ball should still be considered the runner closest to home.
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