Does the run score?

[DNTXUM P]

NCAA:

Score the run.

6.1.2 2) With two outs, score any run
in which the runner is awarded home during a live ball but a trailing
runner is tagged out before touching home plate.
A.R. 6.1.2: Bases loaded, two outs, batter earns a base on balls. Runner from third dawdles on her way home while the runner from second aggressively advances to third, rounds the base and is tagged out. The out at third happens before the runner from third touches home. RULING: Score the run on the live-ball award.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by DNTXUM P

NCAA:

Score the run.

6.1.2 2) With two outs, score any run
in which the runner is awarded home during a live ball but a trailing
runner is tagged out before touching home plate.

Nothing.

A.R. 6.1.2: Bases loaded, two outs, batter earns a base on balls. Runner from third dawdles on her way home while the runner from second aggressively advances to third, rounds the base and is tagged out. The out at third happens before the runner from third touches home. RULING: Score the run on the live-ball award.

That is what the discussion is about. The casebook plays and interpretations are applying protection designed for those runners who are "awarded" bases. My question would be where in the rule book does it state that all runners are awarded a base when the batter walks.

[DNTXUM P]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

Nothing.



That is what the discussion is about. The casebook plays and interpretations are applying protection designed for those runners who are "awarded" bases. My question would be where in the rule book does it state that all runners are awarded a base when the batter walks.

Mike,

Reread my rule quote from the NCAA rule book. I didn't put the entire rule in there, only the part that applied to this discussion. It refers to the exact situation, bases loaded, base on balls, runner going from 2B to 3B put out after rounding 3B before runner from 3B touches home.

With two outs, score any run in which the runner is awarded home during a live ball but a trailing runner is tagged out before touching home plate.

Again this is NCAA rules

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by DNTXUM P

Mike,

Reread my rule quote from the NCAA rule book. I didn't put the entire rule in there, only the part that applied to this discussion. It refers to the exact situation, bases loaded, base on balls, runner going from 2B to 3B put out after rounding 3B before runner from 3B touches home.

With two outs, score any run in which the runner is awarded home during a live ball but a trailing runner is tagged out before touching home plate.

Again this is NCAA rules

You are still missing the point, NCAA or any other org. Where does it say R1 is "awarded" 1 base when B4 receives a walk?

[DNTXUM P]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

You are still missing the point, NCAA or any other org. Where does it say R1 is "awarded" 1 base when B4 receives a walk?

OK, here is the entire rule including the AR.

6.1.2 One run shall be scored each time a runner legally touches first,
second and third bases and home plate before the third out of an inning.
Exceptions: 1) The runner placed on second base to begin the tiebreaker
is exempt from touching first base; and 2) With two outs, score any run
in which the runner is awarded home during a live ball but a trailing
runner is tagged out before touching home plate.
A.R. 6.1.2: Bases loaded, two outs, batter earns a base on balls. Runner from third dawdles on her way home while the runner from second aggressively advances to third, rounds the base and is tagged out. The out at third happens before the runner from third touches home. RULING: Score the run on the live-ball award.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by DNTXUM P

OK, here is the entire rule including the AR.

6.1.2 One run shall be scored each time a runner legally touches first,
second and third bases and home plate before the third out of an inning.
Exceptions: 1) The runner placed on second base to begin the tiebreaker
is exempt from touching first base; and 2) With two outs, score any run
in which the runner is awarded home during a live ball but a trailing
runner is tagged out before touching home plate.
A.R. 6.1.2: Bases loaded, two outs, batter earns a base on balls. Runner from third dawdles on her way home while the runner from second aggressively advances to third, rounds the base and is tagged out. The out at third happens before the runner from third touches home. RULING: Score the run on the live-ball award.

Okay, that's fine and I understand the approved ruling, but I'm still waiting on my answer to the question: Where does it say in any rule book that R1 is "awarded" 1 base when B4 receives a walk?

[DeputyUICHousto]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

Okay, that's fine and I understand the approved ruling, but I'm still waiting on my answer to the question: Where does it say in any rule book that R1 is "awarded" 1 base when B4 receives a walk?

...is awarded 1st base...I think we are all agreed on that. The question now becomes are the runners "awarded" the next base? If they runners are also "awarded" the next base then the run would score regardless of when the out was made.

My opinion (absent a ruling by National Staff Members) on this would be that the run would score but you'd have the runner out on the tag. Its going to be a tough sell regardless of which way you go.

[Dholloway1962]

ASA 8-5 Runners are entitled to advance without liability to be put out.

A. When forced to vacate a base because the batter was awarded a base on balls.

EFFECT (Fast Pitch) The ball remains alive unless it is blocked. Any runner affected is ENTITLED TO ONE BASE.


Webster definition of award: something that is conferred or bestowed especially on the basis of MERIT or need

Webster definition of entitled: to furnish with proper grounds for seeking or CLAIMING something

If that the ASA effect in 8-5-A isn't an award what is it?

[socalumps]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

Okay, that's fine and I understand the approved ruling, but I'm still waiting on my answer to the question: Where does it say in any rule book that R1 is "awarded" 1 base when B4 receives a walk?

NCAA page 169

"12.7 AWARDS

In addition to to any special ground rules established, the following awards are in effect:

12.7.1 ONE BASE. A base runner is entitled to advance one base with no liability to be put out.

12.7.1.1 If forced to vacate a base because of a one-base award to the batter."

[greymule]

Neither ASA nor NCAA (nor OBR) defines the term award. If the term needed any kind of specific differentiation, they would probably define it.

I would say that whenever a BR or runner is permitted to advance to base X without liability to be put out, that constitutes an "award" to base X. That BR or runner has been "awarded" base X. But that doesn't mean that the runner gets base X no matter what else happens. He can still pass a runner (or, if the ball is live, commit INT or violate the LBR) and be called out, or another runner can commit a violation that causes a third out before the awarded base is taken.

"Without liability to be put out" does not mean "without liability to be declared out," so even though bases have been awarded, a third out on a runner declared out constitutes a time play for the purposes of scoring runs. (That's the way I read the interpretations, and OBR operates under that principle, but I can't say I'm 100% certain for ASA or NCAA.)

Now let's take the OP and add a wrinkle. While the runner from 3B dawdles coming home, the overzealous runner from 2B rounds 3B and gets trapped in a rundown between 3B and home. Before the runner from 3B touches the plate, the trapped runner deliberately interferes with a throw and is declared out by the umpire. By my reasoning, the run would not count, because the third out was a runner declared out, not put out (as in the OP).

[IRISHMAFIA]

Well, greymule at least gets my question, and socalumps has answered from the NCAA side.

"Entitled to advance without being put out" is NOT an award.

"Entitled to one base" simply notes the distance the runner is allowed to advance under protection of the rule. But I wouldn't have to say that if you quoted the entire paragraph.

[socalumps]

It depends on what the meaning of is....is??

Bill Clinton

[Dholloway1962]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

Well, greymule at least gets my question, and socalumps has answered from the NCAA side.

"Entitled to advance without being put out" is NOT an award.

"Entitled to one base" simply notes the distance the runner is allowed to advance under protection of the rule. But I wouldn't have to say that if you quoted the entire paragraph.

OK...it doesn't say the word "award". It says "entitled". I still don't see why you are making such a point about the word "award" not being there. In fact, based on the definitions I provided, the word "entitled" is a stronger word than "award". There is no doubt that R1 is entitled to home plate despite the other runner being thrown out before R1 got to home plate.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by Dholloway1962

OK...it doesn't say the word "award". It says "entitled". I still don't see why you are making such a point about the word "award" not being there. In fact, based on the definitions I provided, the word "entitled" is a stronger word than "award". There is no doubt that R1 is entitled to home plate despite the other runner being thrown out before R1 got to home plate.

Because being entitled to advance without being put out doesn't mean you are entitled to a base, just to not be put out during the advancement to the one base when forced.

As we all know a force no longer exist once a trailing runner is retired. And if that retired runner is the third out executed prior to any runner scoring, no run can score.

I'm trying to figure out basis for these interpretations since they contradict given rules.

[SRW]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

Well, greymule at least gets my question...

So does SRW... see post #13.