Does the run score?

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

The following play was posted in the Softball Umpiring Discussion Forum on the NFHS website. I would like to entertain fast pitch rulings from NFHS, NCAA, ASA (including ISA rules), and USSSA.


Bases loaded with two (2) outs when B4 draws a walk. R1 saunters down the base path from third base towards home plate. R2 runs from second base, tags third base, and makes the turn at third base and takes a few steps toward home plate. F2, who still has not thrown the ball back to F1 sees that R2 has rounded third base and fires the ball to F5 who tags R2 before R2 can return to third base. F5 tag of R2 occurs before R1 has touched home plate.

Assuming that R1 does touch home plate, does the run count.


It is my humble opinion that R1's run counts.


MTD, Sr.

[Dakota]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

It is my humble opinion that R1's run counts.

Since when have you ever had a humble opinion?

[SRW]

In ASA:
That's not a force out, it's a timing play. No run scores.

ASA 2007 Case Play 8.6-1

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by SRW

In ASA:
That's not a force out, it's a timing play. No run scores.

ASA 2007 Case Play 8.6-1

SRW:

I have a few questions:


1) Was B4 awarded first base when she drew the walk?

2) B4's walk forced R3, R2, and R1 to advance one base. Are these single base advances considered awarded bases?

3) If R3, R2, and R1's advancement of one base are considered awarded bases, then wouldn't R1's run score even if she touches home plate after R2 is tagged out?

MTD, Sr.

[Dakota]

Case Play 8.6-1 does not address the issue of the OP play. In 8.6-1, the other runners touch their bases and the runner who is out is out before reaching the awarded base (for walking off the field). The runs do not score in this case play because the 3rd out of the inning was a force out / before BR reached 1B.

Can a timing play out nullify a run from an awarded base?

ASA rule 5-5-B-2 says

No run shall be scored if the third out of the inning is the result of:

2. A runner being put out by a tag or live ball appeal play prior to the lead
runner touching home plate.

This was prior to the lead runner touching home plate.

[rwest]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

SRW:

I have a few questions:


1) Was B4 awarded first base when she drew the walk?

2) B4's walk forced R3, R2, and R1 to advance one base. Are these single base advances considered awarded bases?

3) If R3, R2, and R1's advancement of one base are considered awarded bases, then wouldn't R1's run score even if she touches home plate after R2 is tagged out?

MTD, Sr.

I don't have my case book handy, but there is a case play with this exact scenario and the run scores, because R1 was awarded home on the walk.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Speaking ASA

1) Was B4 awarded first base when she drew the walk?

Yes. 8.1.C

2) B4's walk forced R3, R2, and R1 to advance one base. Are these single base advances considered awarded bases?

The award is to the batter. That award forced and protected those runners only to the next base. 8.5.A

3) If R3, R2, and R1's advancement of one base are considered awarded bases, then wouldn't R1's run score even if she touches home plate after R2 is tagged out?

It would IF they were awarded bases, which, IMO, they are not. No run is scored based on 5.5.B.2

[Dakota]

Originally Posted by rwest

I don't have my case book handy, but there is a case play with this exact scenario and the run scores, because R1 was awarded home on the walk.

There is an NFHS case play for this scenario, but I can't find an ASA one. Here is the NFHS case play:

8.1.1 SITUATION F: With two outs, the bases loaded and a three-and-two count on B6, the next pitch is a wild pitch. R1 begins advancing to home. R2, on second base, is off with the pitch. She rounds third base, but is caught off the base by an excellent throw by F2 for the third out. R1 had not touched home when R2 was tagged out at third. RULING: R1 was awarded home as soon as the fourth ball was declared. Consequently, as soon as R1 touches the plate, her run counts. (8-4-3a Effect)

In NFHS, the run scores.

[rwest]

Originally Posted by Dakota

There is an NFHS case play for this scenario, but I can't find an ASA one. Here is the NFHS case play:In NFHS, the run scores.

Dakota, that's the one I was thinking of. I didn't make it clear, but I meant an NFHS case play.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by Dakota

There is an NFHS case play for this scenario, but I can't find an ASA one. Here is the NFHS case play:In NFHS, the run scores.

Just out of curiosity, does the NFHS rule state that the runner is actually awarding runners a base when another player is walked, or is it an assumption supported by the case play?

I don't care, just curious as to the wording.

[rwest]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

Just out of curiosity, does the NFHS rule state that the runner is actually awarding runners a base when another player is walked, or is it an assumption supported by the case play?

I don't care, just curious as to the wording.

Its implied in the index. Under Awards it directs you to 2-63-1 and 2-63-2, which define Walk and Intentional Walk. And also in 8-4-3,it says "A runner is entitled to advance without liability to be put out when forced to vacate a base because the batter was awarded first base".

I've yet to find where it says in black and white that a walk is an award. It is however heavily implied by the case play and rule book.

[Dakota]

Except for the implications above, the NFHS rule book does not directly say the OTHER runners forced to advance are awarded their bases. Heck, the NFHS book does not even call the base on balls itself an awarded base (again, except by inference as noted above). The NFHS Rule 8-1-1-c for fast pitch (fourth ball called by the umpire) only says the batter becomes a BR. It does not use the word "award" for fast pitch (it does for the intentional BOB for slow pitch).

[SRW]

We're not "awarding" R1, R2, or R3 anything... the only one we're "awarding" is the BR 1B. The others are forced to vacate, and are protected to the next base by rule.

I have a hard time in either rule set (even though NFHS specifically shows it via the case play) that the runners are "awarded" the next base.

i.e.: If we had a runner on 2B only, we don't "award" them the next base ... they're entitled to go there without liability "if forced."

[AtlUmpSteve]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

Just out of curiosity, does the NFHS rule state that the runner is actually awarding runners a base when another player is walked, or is it an assumption supported by the case play?

I don't care, just curious as to the wording.

I started to disagree with Mark on the NFHS board, absed on the wording of the rule, but discovered before I posted that the case play states the run scores.

The definition of a walk in NFHS 2-63-1 says the batter is awarded first. The baserunning rule 8-4-3(a) says that runners forced to advance as a result of the batter walking are "entitled to advance without liability to be put out". That stops short of making the advance bases awards; and since the ball is alive, I would argue that advances, even if entitled without jeopardy, are then timing plays.

But, MS says otherwise, and until or unless she changes the ruling or the wording of rule, they will continue to contradict.

NCAA uses similar language, so I would presume it also does not consider the entitlement to advance to be an award.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by rwest

Its implied in the index. Under Awards it directs you to 2-63-1 and 2-63-2, which define Walk and Intentional Walk. And also in 8-4-3,it says "A runner is entitled to advance without liability to be put out when forced to vacate a base because the batter was awarded first base".

I've yet to find where it says in black and white that a walk is an award. It is however heavily implied by the case play and rule book.

I understand a walk is an award to the batter, but not the runners. If it were, a lone runner on 3B would score on a walk or HBP, and we all know that isn't gonna happen

That's why I was curious of the wording.

For as much as I know, ASA may want the same ruling. My supposition is based upon the rules available.