Wow, I cannot believe an umpire said that...

[Bandit]

I have pretty must given up my summer ball umpiring because of my daughter and son's schedule. I heard something this week-end that simply AMAZED me. USSSA. 10 & Under. Asked the umpire between innings if he would be so kind as to ask that the opposing teams pitcher make sure that when she steps onto the rubber that her hands were seperated. Did not want a penalty. Did not want to make a scene. Simply made a quiet request. Then I heard 2 things. #1 Coach I'm not going to worry about that....their only 10 year olds. I smiled and walked away after simply saying "thank-you". And before I could return to the dugout he followed me and said coach....."I don't follow all of the rules in the book for this age group...if I did it would make for a really lousy game." Has any one else found a need to NOT follow the rules book because it can create a really "lousy" game. Just wondering?

PS this is only one of several things I was "taught" this week-end!

[Dholloway1962]

Originally Posted by Bandit

Has any one else found a need to NOT follow the rules book because it can create a really "lousy" game. Just wondering?

I think we do it all the time in 10 and under ball and Rec ball. Do you use the rule book strike zone in all age groups? I don't...it is based on level of ball. You use the rule book zone in 10 and under and it will be a walkfest. Do you call all illegal pitches in a 10 and under game, I don't..If the wind picks up and she stops her delivery because of the dust, or if she goes to the glove twice I won't call that an IP.

If you didn't want a penalty or to make a scene why even bring it up?

Curious, If you had been umpiring and a coach came up to you and said that what would you have done?

I do see his side...would I have verbalized it to a coach, probably not.

Would I have called the IP or even talked to her about it, at that age group probably not.

Would I have mentioned to the coach that he needs to work with her getting on the pitcher's plate with the hands seperated, probably.

[Bandit]

To answer some of your questions..and to add at least one. First my question...where in the book does it say 10 and Unders are to be handled with special rules or handling? Now please allow me to answer but clearify. Do I call IP on 10's. Yes I do. Now do I give them time to fix or do I warn. Yes. But at what point do you say enogh is enough? You question of why ask if I didn't want to make a scene or want the penalty...How about the teaching part of the game. What would I do if a coach came up to me with a question such as mine...And I have...I would kindly attempt to take care of the issue. Now about your dust issue/question. Would I or have I given benefit of doubt or benefit of conditions to pitchers. Absolutley. I guess my real question and even more so after you response. Why do you penalize the teams and girls who have been taught to do it right and legal and reward the ones who have not? This is TRAVEL ball BIG GIRL ball if you want to be handled with kid gloves go find a rec league. Travel ball cost too much money.

[SWFLguy]

Hmmm---
Common Sense Umpiring vs. Technical Umpiring ??
I'll take the common sense approach. It has worked for me for over 50 years.
(siding with dhollaway)

[SRW]

There's a saying we have up here in the upper left corner of the world...

Rulebook right, Ballfield Wrong.

Think about it...

[Skahtboi]

Originally Posted by SRW

Rulebook right, Ballfield Wrong.

We are paid to enforce the rules of the game. Period. That means we don't take it upon ourselves to decide at any time that today we are going to enforce only these rules, otherwise I will probably have a really lousy game. It is the "lousy" games that challege us and our skills as umpires. The high level stuff, (good varsity HS and college level) practically calls itself.

These kids need to learn. They need to know what is legal and illegal. They need to learn it as soon as the rule applies to them, so long as there aren't superceding league rules in place. If, in the case of the OP, the USSSA rule book says that the pitcher must step on the pitching plate with both hands separated (it does), then we have to enforce this. Could you take the time to tell the coach so that he may have the opportunity to work on this with his pitcher before you call the infraction, sure. I would advise it. Don't sell these kids short. The learning curve is really high at their age.

[Dholloway1962]

Originally Posted by Skahtboi

We are paid to enforce the rules of the game. Period. That means we don't take it upon ourselves to decide at any time that today we are going to enforce only these rules

These kids need to learn. They need to know what is legal and illegal. They need to learn it as soon as the rule applies to them, so long as there aren't superceding league rules in place. If, in the case of the OP, the USSSA rule book says that the pitcher must step on the pitching plate with both hands separated (it does), then we have to enforce this. Could you take the time to tell the coach so that he may have the opportunity to work on this with his pitcher before you call the infraction, sure. I would advise it.

I understand the point you are trying to make...But isn't what you are saying double speak? You say enforce the rules, if it is illegal call it. For instance, you say it is illegal in USSSA to step onto the pitching plate with the hands not seperated. Based on your first statements: That is an illegal pitch and you should call it immediately.

But then you turn around and say you could take the time to tell the coach so he can work on it before you call the IP...that is a warning isn't it? Does it say anything about a warning in USSSA?

My point being, I think we all deviate from the rules somewhat based on what level of ball we are calling. You can't be "by the book" all the time on every nitpicking thing for every age group.

[Skahtboi]

Originally Posted by Dholloway1962

I understand the point you are trying to make...But isn't what you are saying double speak? You say enforce the rules, if it is illegal call it. For instance, you say it is illegal in USSSA to step onto the pitching plate with the hands not seperated. Based on your first statements: That is an illegal pitch and you should call it immediately.

But then you turn around and say you could take the time to tell the coach so he can work on it before you call the IP...that is a warning isn't it? Does it say anything about a warning in USSSA?

My point being, I think we all deviate from the rules somewhat based on what level of ball we are calling. You can't be "by the book" all the time on every nitpicking thing for every age group.

No. I guess I am just thinking of the way I do things. What I was implying was if you see this when she is warming up, go and talk to a coach about it, so that he will have the opportunity to make the necessary corrections. These are the little things I look for at the beginning of each half inning. Problems that might need to be addressed.

[Dakota]

In my view, the proper way to handle these things depend on both the level of play (not JUST age of the players), the level of the game, and the rule being violated.

The most leeway is given to younger rec league games early in the season on technical illegalities (how to step onto the plate, double touching, etc.)

The least leeway (i.e. none) is given to travel teams in championship play (regardless of age).

For little kids (10, 12 U) playing early season league games in a rec league, I'm talking to the coach between innings about technical pitching violations where there is no "damage" being done to the opponent (other than them not getting the benefit of the IP penalty). Usually, I will even instruct the coach to NOT say anything to his pitcher now, but deal with it during practice.

As the season progresses for these kinds of teams, I begin to expect some of these issues to have been addressed already, and will then warn and expect to call it the next time I see it. For rec-level tournaments, we are many times instructed to warn before calling any IP by the tournament UIC.

If you try to wrap this into one all-inclusive answer, you will find your self either OOO for young rec league games or too lax for travel games.

[AtlUmpSteve]

Originally Posted by Skahtboi

No. I guess I am just thinking of the way I do things. What I was implying was if you see this when she is warming up, go and talk to a coach about it, so that he will have the opportunity to make the necessary corrections. These are the little things I look for at the beginning of each half inning. Problems that might need to be addressed.

Scott, I'm not disagreeing with you in the big picture.

Just a word of caution, I know of some umpires who have gotten in a wringer over warning about how a pitcher pitchess she warms up. I certainly want to look at their tendencies, but have encountered numerous pitchers that throw every warmup pitch illegally (run through the plate, step back, slide forward, leap), but throw every pitch in the game legally.

At some levels, you don't want to comment on things that don't matter; pitchers are not required to throw legal warmup pitches.

[Skahtboi]

Originally Posted by AtlUmpSteve

Scott, I'm not disagreeing with you in the big picture.

Just a word of caution, I know of some umpires who have gotten in a wringer over warning about how a pitcher pitchess she warms up. I certainly want to look at their tendencies, but have encountered numerous pitchers that throw every warmup pitch illegally (run through the plate, step back, slide forward, leap), but throw every pitch in the game legally.

At some levels, you don't want to comment on things that don't matter; pitchers are not required to throw legal warmup pitches.

I have run into that so often, that when I am talking with the coach I will usually start out by saying "If she pitches like that during the game......"

[wadeintothem]

-Umpire to the level of the game.
-Dont tell them you are umpiring to their level.

All will be fine.

[Chess Ref]

Originally Posted by wadeintothem

-Umpire to the level of the game.
-Dont tell them you are umpiring to their level.

All will be fine.

Does anymore need to be said .........

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by wadeintothem

-Umpire to the level of the game.
-Dont tell them you are umpiring to their level.

All will be fine.

That's all well and fine, but sort of comes apart when "they" inform you that "blue, you are missing a pretty good game" and the obvious response is, "I know, but I was assigned this one!"

[Dholloway1962]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

That's all well and fine, but sort of come apart when "they" inform you that "blue, you are missing a pretty good game" and the obvious response is, "I know, but I was assigned this one!"

that is hiliarous, I might need to use that one with your permission of course