Wow, I cannot believe an umpire said that...

[SWFLguy]

Hmmm---
Common Sense Umpiring vs. Technical Umpiring ??
I'll take the common sense approach. It has worked for me for over 50 years.
(siding with dhollaway)

[SRW]

There's a saying we have up here in the upper left corner of the world...

Rulebook right, Ballfield Wrong.

Think about it...

[Skahtboi]

Originally Posted by SRW

Rulebook right, Ballfield Wrong.

We are paid to enforce the rules of the game. Period. That means we don't take it upon ourselves to decide at any time that today we are going to enforce only these rules, otherwise I will probably have a really lousy game. It is the "lousy" games that challege us and our skills as umpires. The high level stuff, (good varsity HS and college level) practically calls itself.

These kids need to learn. They need to know what is legal and illegal. They need to learn it as soon as the rule applies to them, so long as there aren't superceding league rules in place. If, in the case of the OP, the USSSA rule book says that the pitcher must step on the pitching plate with both hands separated (it does), then we have to enforce this. Could you take the time to tell the coach so that he may have the opportunity to work on this with his pitcher before you call the infraction, sure. I would advise it. Don't sell these kids short. The learning curve is really high at their age.

[Dholloway1962]

Originally Posted by Skahtboi

We are paid to enforce the rules of the game. Period. That means we don't take it upon ourselves to decide at any time that today we are going to enforce only these rules

These kids need to learn. They need to know what is legal and illegal. They need to learn it as soon as the rule applies to them, so long as there aren't superceding league rules in place. If, in the case of the OP, the USSSA rule book says that the pitcher must step on the pitching plate with both hands separated (it does), then we have to enforce this. Could you take the time to tell the coach so that he may have the opportunity to work on this with his pitcher before you call the infraction, sure. I would advise it.

I understand the point you are trying to make...But isn't what you are saying double speak? You say enforce the rules, if it is illegal call it. For instance, you say it is illegal in USSSA to step onto the pitching plate with the hands not seperated. Based on your first statements: That is an illegal pitch and you should call it immediately.

But then you turn around and say you could take the time to tell the coach so he can work on it before you call the IP...that is a warning isn't it? Does it say anything about a warning in USSSA?

My point being, I think we all deviate from the rules somewhat based on what level of ball we are calling. You can't be "by the book" all the time on every nitpicking thing for every age group.

[Skahtboi]

Originally Posted by Dholloway1962

I understand the point you are trying to make...But isn't what you are saying double speak? You say enforce the rules, if it is illegal call it. For instance, you say it is illegal in USSSA to step onto the pitching plate with the hands not seperated. Based on your first statements: That is an illegal pitch and you should call it immediately.

But then you turn around and say you could take the time to tell the coach so he can work on it before you call the IP...that is a warning isn't it? Does it say anything about a warning in USSSA?

My point being, I think we all deviate from the rules somewhat based on what level of ball we are calling. You can't be "by the book" all the time on every nitpicking thing for every age group.

No. I guess I am just thinking of the way I do things. What I was implying was if you see this when she is warming up, go and talk to a coach about it, so that he will have the opportunity to make the necessary corrections. These are the little things I look for at the beginning of each half inning. Problems that might need to be addressed.

[Dakota]

In my view, the proper way to handle these things depend on both the level of play (not JUST age of the players), the level of the game, and the rule being violated.

The most leeway is given to younger rec league games early in the season on technical illegalities (how to step onto the plate, double touching, etc.)

The least leeway (i.e. none) is given to travel teams in championship play (regardless of age).

For little kids (10, 12 U) playing early season league games in a rec league, I'm talking to the coach between innings about technical pitching violations where there is no "damage" being done to the opponent (other than them not getting the benefit of the IP penalty). Usually, I will even instruct the coach to NOT say anything to his pitcher now, but deal with it during practice.

As the season progresses for these kinds of teams, I begin to expect some of these issues to have been addressed already, and will then warn and expect to call it the next time I see it. For rec-level tournaments, we are many times instructed to warn before calling any IP by the tournament UIC.

If you try to wrap this into one all-inclusive answer, you will find your self either OOO for young rec league games or too lax for travel games.

[LIIRISHMAN]

Originally Posted by Dakota

In my view, the proper way to handle these things depend on both the level of play (not JUST age of the players), the level of the game, and the rule being violated.

The most leeway is given to younger rec league games early in the season on technical illegalities (how to step onto the plate, double touching, etc.)

The least leeway (i.e. none) is given to travel teams in championship play (regardless of age).

For little kids (10, 12 U) playing early season league games in a rec league, I'm talking to the coach between innings about technical pitching violations where there is no "damage" being done to the opponent (other than them not getting the benefit of the IP penalty). Usually, I will even instruct the coach to NOT say anything to his pitcher now, but deal with it during practice.

As the season progresses for these kinds of teams, I begin to expect some of these issues to have been addressed already, and will then warn and expect to call it the next time I see it. For rec-level tournaments, we are many times instructed to warn before calling any IP by the tournament UIC.

If you try to wrap this into one all-inclusive answer, you will find your self either OOO for young rec league games or too lax for travel games.

I agree with you. You need to follow common sense. A NCAA or HS varsity and even most JV games need strict rule enforcement. On the other hand JH or younger I would lose what little hair I have left and more importantly actual game time play if I enforced all ASA rules by the book. I'll give you an example. Worked with a rookie last year doing 12 and under both teams were "average". Bases loaded girl started her delivery and stopped because some one shouted out of thestands. My partner was plate ump and he called an illegal pitch and you know all (blank) happened. The rest of the game was pure misery with over 12 illegal pitches and 2 ejections.I for one will try to manage a game with both rules and a little common sense when common sense is called for.

[AtlUmpSteve]

Originally Posted by Skahtboi

No. I guess I am just thinking of the way I do things. What I was implying was if you see this when she is warming up, go and talk to a coach about it, so that he will have the opportunity to make the necessary corrections. These are the little things I look for at the beginning of each half inning. Problems that might need to be addressed.

Scott, I'm not disagreeing with you in the big picture.

Just a word of caution, I know of some umpires who have gotten in a wringer over warning about how a pitcher pitchess she warms up. I certainly want to look at their tendencies, but have encountered numerous pitchers that throw every warmup pitch illegally (run through the plate, step back, slide forward, leap), but throw every pitch in the game legally.

At some levels, you don't want to comment on things that don't matter; pitchers are not required to throw legal warmup pitches.

[Skahtboi]

Originally Posted by AtlUmpSteve

Scott, I'm not disagreeing with you in the big picture.

Just a word of caution, I know of some umpires who have gotten in a wringer over warning about how a pitcher pitchess she warms up. I certainly want to look at their tendencies, but have encountered numerous pitchers that throw every warmup pitch illegally (run through the plate, step back, slide forward, leap), but throw every pitch in the game legally.

At some levels, you don't want to comment on things that don't matter; pitchers are not required to throw legal warmup pitches.

I have run into that so often, that when I am talking with the coach I will usually start out by saying "If she pitches like that during the game......"