Lookback Rule at 2nd Base

[whiskers_ump]

Jeff
I apologize, I was assuming and I know what to assume
does. Makes an a** out of u and me, although not in
your case, but certainly in mine.

Sorry

glen

[mo99]

No problem at all Glen.I just wanted to make sure we were dicussing the play described.I do enjoy reading your insightful posts on this board.
Jeff

[chuck chopper]

It has been mentioned that once a pitcher has the ball in the circle, during a walk the batter/runner while attempting to go to second MAY reverse her direction if a play is made on her. Is this true ?, and what constitutes making a play. Does it require a throw by the pitcher, and if the ball is not in flight yet when the direction change is made THEN WHAT ? I was under the impression that a change in direction wasn't allowed PERIOD !, once the pitcher had the ball in the circle.

[DownTownTonyBrown]

Originally posted by chuck chopper
It has been mentioned that once a pitcher has the ball in the circle, during a walk the batter/runner while attempting to go to second MAY reverse her direction if a play is made on her. Is this true ?, and what constitutes making a play. Does it require a throw by the pitcher, and if the ball is not in flight yet when the direction change is made THEN WHAT ? I was under the impression that a change in direction wasn't allowed PERIOD !, once the pitcher had the ball in the circle.

Runner may stop and then must immediately choose a direction and go. This may mean a change in direction if the runner goes past their base, stops, and then returns to their base. They have changed directions - for example they were advancing to 2nd, they stopped, now they are returning to 1st. This is legal.

Changing directions more than this (in an attempt to attract a defensive play) is illegal. Stopping, feinting to 1st, and then running for 2nd is illegal - as long as the pitcher has not made a play.

A play by the defense can be the pitcher raising her hand with the ball in it (a feint). And now the runner can do whatever she wants.

The look-back rule is applicable to any runner off any base because they must be on the base at the time of the pitch. It is not just applicable to runners between 1st and 2nd.

The situation of greymule with a runner forced to advance due to the batter being walked and the pitcher being sucked-in to making a play on a runner with no liability to be put-out is just stupid defense. Delay of game? Possibly; but I can't imagine that much dancing that the game could appreciably be delayed.

Hope this helps!

[greymule]

Once the pitcher makes a play on the runner, the look-back rule is off for all runners. It's like time out in that it is universal and does not apply in one place and not another.

I believe that ASA and Fed do differ in what they consider to be a play. In ASA, a play is just about anything the pitcher does that the runner might interpret as being a play (such as simply holding the ball up or turning quickly toward the runner). I no longer do Fed, but I think they want to see more of a definite "play."

Incidentally, ASA POE #33, which covers the look-back rule, contains a very misleading sentence:

"If a runner is moving toward a base, other than first base, when the pitcher receives that ball in the circle, that runner must continue toward the base or be called out."

This is obviously untrue. A runner could have rounded 2B and be two steps toward 2B and still moving when the pitcher gets the ball in the circle. The runner is still entitled to a stop, after which she could either proceed toward 3B or return to 2B.

[Dakota]

Originally posted by chuck chopper
It has been mentioned that once a pitcher has the ball in the circle, during a walk the batter/runner while attempting to go to second MAY reverse her direction if a play is made on her. Is this true ?,

No. The runner may stop once and either continue or reverse without the pitcher doing anything at all. IOW, no play is necessary for the runner to stop once & reverse direction. Second, if a play is made the runner (and all other runners) is released altogether from the lookback rule.

and what constitutes making a play. Does it require a throw by the pitcher, and if the ball is not in flight yet when the direction change is made THEN WHAT ?

ASA POE 33 defines making a play as any action by the pitcher that, in the umpire's judgment, causes the runner to react. The ball in flight is obviously a "play", but so is a fake throw.

I was under the impression that a change in direction wasn't allowed PERIOD !, once the pitcher had the ball in the circle.

Not true. As I said above, the runner may stop once and then must immediately move in one direction or the other (assuming no play is made).

[Dakota]

Originally posted by greymule
I believe that ASA and Fed do differ in what they consider to be a play. In ASA, a play is just about anything the pitcher does that the runner might interpret as being a play (such as simply holding the ball up or turning quickly toward the runner). I no longer do Fed, but I think they want to see more of a definite "play."

NFHS uses very similar wording in the rule, and the NFHS case book includes several examples of pitchers raising arms, stepping toward bases, etc., wherein the case book explains again that it is umpire judgment, so such actions could constitute making a play. They give a couple of examples where it would not be a play (i.e. BR rounds 1st, no other runners on, F1 takes a step toward 3rd), and others where they say it would probably not be a play (F1 raises her arm, apparently to adjust her jersey, etc.), but leave open the possibility that the umpire could judge these as making a play.

[chuck chopper]

With NO PLAY BEING MADE ON BATTER RUNNER !. ASA 8-7-T-3-B Page 116 of "03" rule book states that if you "ROUND" 1st and move toward 2nd, you CAN STOP, but can't go back to first..you are committed to 2nd. This was where yesterday I was unsure. If you simply over run first and dont "round" towards 2nd then you can stop and return to 1st. I did not know the difference until just this morning.
In local league play we get walkers & 3rd stikers constantly "rounding" 1st, stop, and go back. They are OUT.

[Dakota]

Originally posted by chuck chopper
With NO PLAY BEING MADE ON BATTER RUNNER !. ASA 8-7-T-3-B Page 116 of "03" rule book states that if you "ROUND" 1st and move toward 2nd, you CAN STOP, but can't go back to first..you are committed to 2nd....

No, it doesn't.

In local league play we get walkers & 3rd stikers constantly "rounding" 1st, stop, and go back. They are OUT.

No, they aren't.

8-7T-3b, c, d, and e concern overrunning.

Here is the rule concerning rounding:

ASA 8-7T-3a A batter-runner who rounds first base toward second base may stop, but then must immediately return to first or attempt to advance non-stop to second base.

[Del-Blue]

With a runner on second, and a walk to the batter, the lookback rule is NOT in effect until the BR reaches first. She is entitled to make a turn, stop, and then go either way without any further stops. If during this time, the runner off second is just standing there when the BR reaches first, at which time the lookback rule is in effect, watching what is going on at first, and the pitcher makes NO play, The runner at second is OUT. In greymule's play, which sorta got off the subject, and now we have two different plays, the runner on first when a walk is issued, goes to second without liability to be put out. Not sure why she is playing around before she gets to second, or why the pitcher thinks she can make a play on her, but she is protected to second.

[CecilOne]

Originally posted by chuck chopper
... snip ... if you "ROUND" 1st and move toward 2nd, you CAN STOP, but can't go back to first..you are committed to 2nd. ... snip ...

Doesn't NFHS have such a restriction on an overrun of 1st followed by a move toward 2nd?

[CecilOne]

Originally posted by Del-Blue
... snip ... Not sure why she is playing around before she gets to second, or why the pitcher thinks she can make a play on her, but she is protected to second.

Presumably because drawing a play from a pitcher who is reacting instead of thinking could lead to an error and further advancement.

[Dakota]

Originally posted by CecilOne

Doesn't NFHS have such a restriction on an overrun of 1st followed by a move toward 2nd?

Yes - for overrunning 1st, rather than rounding first - NFHS 8-7-3c. So does ASA. ASA 8-7T-3c.

[CecilOne]

Originally posted by Dakota
Yes - for overrunning 1st, rather than rounding first - NFHS 8-7-3c. So does ASA. ASA 8-7T-3c. [/B]

Right, I said overrunning, probably where the confusion above comes from. And, oh yes, the earlier comment did say ASA.

[WestMichBlue]

All this talk about ASA vs NFHS. Any of you umpires that do both should know by now that the LB rule is both books is 99.999% identical. The only difference I see is that ASA uses 8' radius and NFHS uses 16' dia to describe the circle; and ASA uses the pronoun HE and NFHS uses SHE. Oh, and ASA uses EFFECT and NFHS uses PENALTY, but the verbage within is identical.

Despite all the words, there is no difference between "Rounding" 1B and "Over-running" 1B. In both cases you have your basic "3 step rule" - Stop, Decide, and Proceed Non-Stop.

The runner gets to stop once, then must decide whether to go to the next base or back to the last base. After the decision, the runner must proceed non-stop to the base of choice.

If the runner "rounds" 1B, her movement is towards 2B and she get to stop once. (And we are not going to argue about how far she can go before the STOP.) Then decide, and either go to 2B or back to 1B.

If the runner "over-runs" 1B, her movement is towards RF. When she pulls up to return to the infield she has committed a stop.

A) If she turns Left then she must decide - go to 2B or return to 1B. Any movement towards either base commits her to proceed non-stop to that base.

B) If she turns Right she is assumed to have decided to return to 1B, and any other action would be illegal.

If you will just remember this "3-Step Rule", understand, and officiating the Look-Back Rule is simple.

Oh BTW, there is one other difference between ASA and NFHS. For the LB to be in effect in ASA the pitcher must have control of the ball (in hand or glove); in NFHS the pitcher only has to have possession. Tucked under the chin while she adjusts her pony tail is possession in NFHS.

WMB