Infield Fly - ball lands foul & rolls fair

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by shipwreck

I have always thought that the IFR should be in effect even if it is only with first base occupied and less than 2 outs. What protects the offense if the defense just lets the ball drop and then turns a double play?

Nothing, as long as the defense did not touch the ball in flight and intentionally drop it.

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by jmaellis

brand-spanking-new ump. here with a question.

I get the infield fly rule and it's purpose. In the OP the ball landed in foul territory and then rolled fair. Why, in this scenario isn't this just a foul ball .. or is it? I'm having trouble following the different replies with regard to the correct ruling in this situation.

Set aside the IFR* in your mind for now. Any batted ball that settles or is first touched in fair ground before passing the bases is a fair ball. It does not matter if it touched foul ground first. Past the bases, it has to touch fair ground first, but that is not the question here.
So, if it is a fair ball, the IFR* applies if the other conditions are met.

Fair/foul and IFR* if fair are two separate issues. As Tom says repeatedly and more clearly, an IFR* infield fly is the same as any other fly ball except the batter is automatically out.

* IFR, not IFF, infield is one word.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by CecilOne

Nothing, as long as the defense did not touch the ball in flight and intentionally drop it.

What does "touch the ball in flight" have to do with it? I am assuming that this statement is separate from "intentionally drop" since it is obvious the defense must touch a ball in flight to effect and intentional drop.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by shipwreck

I have always thought that the IFR should be in effect even if it is only with first base occupied and less than 2 outs. What protects the offense if the defense just lets the ball drop and then turns a double play?

Nothing if the idiot BR doesn't run to 1B, nor does the offense deserve any protection. If the D turns two because the BR doesn't run to 1B, the defense deserves the double play.

The reason the rule is there is because the runners are in a no win situation since they are required to tag up prior to advancing on a caught fly ball. The BR has no such restrictions.

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

What does "touch the ball in flight" have to do with it? I am assuming that this statement is separate from "intentionally drop" since it is obvious the defense must touch a ball in flight to effect and intentional drop.

Not separate, clarifying the intentional drop rule for newbies and those who questioned "let it fall" versus "intentional drop" in another topic. I guess I should not have underlined part of the rule, but that was my original wording and I was emphasizing which rule I was talking about.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by CecilOne

Not separate, clarifying the intentional drop rule for newbies and those who questioned "let it fall" versus "intentional drop" in another topic. I guess I should not have underlined part of the rule, but that was my original wording and I was emphasizing which rule I was talking about.

Okay, but remember, an intentional drop takes more than just touching the ball.

[jmaellis]

anybody know of a "ASA Softball Umpiring For Dummies" or another similar publication or cheat sheet? I've been looking around for a "condensed" version of the rule book; something that hit the highlights.

[WestMichBlue]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

Okay, but remember, an intentional drop takes more than just touching the ball.

How much more than just a touch? ASA only? Case play or other ref?

I am asking because NFHS allows only a "touch." Case book describes knocking the ball to the ground with the glove, or "manipulating the ball to the ground."

I am also curious about the ASA case book info about "catching the ball" and then dropping it (8.2.38). Why wouldn't you declare "catching the ball" a legal catch, thus batter is out and ball stays live?


WMB

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

Okay, but remember, an intentional drop takes more than just touching the ball.

Of course, but like I said it has to be included. No just letting it fall.

When you come down to it, an intentional drop requires all the aspects of a catch except retaining possession.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by WestMichBlue

How much more than just a touch? ASA only? Case play or other ref?

I am asking because NFHS allows only a "touch." Case book describes knocking the ball to the ground with the glove, or "manipulating the ball to the ground."

I am also curious about the ASA case book info about "catching the ball" and then dropping it (8.2.38). Why wouldn't you declare "catching the ball" a legal catch, thus batter is out and ball stays live?


WMB

Speaking ASA

RS #30 The ball cannot be intentionally dropped unless the fielder has actually caught it, and then drops it. Merely guiding the ball to the ground is not an intentionally dropped ball

Seems pretty clear to me. The ball is dead to protect the runners in a manner similar to an IF.

Difference here is that on an IF, it is declared early enough to give the runners time to understand their options. The ID cannot be called until after the questionable action occurred.

[argodad]

Originally Posted by shipwreck

I have always thought that the IFR should be in effect even if it is only with first base occupied and less than 2 outs. What protects the offense if the defense just lets the ball drop and then turns a double play?

Coaching the BR to run out her pop fly.

[DaveASA/FED]

Ok by RS 30 an ID ball is one that was caught so BR is out. So the only reason we kill it is to protect the runners from thinking the dropped ball was NOT a catch and has put them into a position to have to advance. So we have a legal catch and BR out by fielders action (different from IF) and this following action of dropping the ball, possibly decieving the offense making them think it was NOT a catch is the reason for killing the play and putting them back in the TOP positions.

Does that seem about right? I am really saying the above to make sure I understand this right!!!

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by bkbjones

Another very important thing to remember is: the infield fly rule is NOT there to punish the offense. It is there to PROTECT the offense. Without the infield fly rule, a ball could be fair and uncaught, thereby putting the offense in jeopardy of an easy double or triple play.

Now that "about to receive" has been eliminated elsewhere, it's time to eliminate "ordinary effort" from the IFR and focus on "runner(s) in jeopardy"; the real purpose of the rule.