Some coaches just don't know when to quit....

[Andy]

Just a rant.....

18u game Saturday, ASA rules, I'm BU.

Team A replaces their pitcher in the third inning after Team B get a few hits.
Team A pitcher's footwork is peculiar looking, but not illegal in my judgement.

Between innings, as I am cleaning the pitcher's plate, Team B assistant coach, who was coaching first base, asks me if the pitcher is illegal. I tell him that I have not seen anything illegal. I was in C position the entire time she was pitching in the inning, so I was waiting to get a look from A position to see if I could see anything different. She was pushing hard off the PP, and there was minimal drag with the pivot foot until it was about 6 inches in front of the pitchers plate. She was not leaping and not replanting with a second pushoff, so I left it alone.

During the next inning she was pitching, Team B head coach calls time and comes to ask me about the pitcher's footwork. I tell him that, in my judgement, the pitcher is legal. He doesn't like that answer and keeps whining, so I tell him that the pitcher is legal and let's play. During the next two pitches, I get loud comments from both coaches: "She did it again!" "You can't see that?!?" "It's happening every pitch!" I call time and calmly approach the head coach to let him know that he has made his opinion known and there will be no further discussion of the pitcher's footwork.

The third out comes and both coaches approach my partner at the plate to further complain. I retreat to my between innings position in short right field. He tells them that they are talking to the wrong umpire, but they keep on going. As the assisstant coach is walking away, he loudly says something about how we (umpires) need to learn more, then he points at me and says: "Especially him, out there!" At this point, I excused him from the remainder of the game.

How hard to understand was "no further discussion"?

[MichaelVA2000]

Originally Posted by Andy

Just a rant.....

18u game Saturday, ASA rules, I'm BU.

Team A replaces their pitcher in the third inning after Team B get a few hits.
Team A pitcher's footwork is peculiar looking, but not illegal in my judgement.

Between innings, as I am cleaning the pitcher's plate, Team B assistant coach, who was coaching first base, asks me if the pitcher is illegal. I tell him that I have not seen anything illegal. I was in C position the entire time she was pitching in the inning, so I was waiting to get a look from A position to see if I could see anything different. She was pushing hard off the PP, and there was minimal drag with the pivot foot until it was about 6 inches in front of the pitchers plate. She was not leaping and not replanting with a second pushoff, so I left it alone.

During the next inning she was pitching, Team B head coach calls time and comes to ask me about the pitcher's footwork. I tell him that, in my judgement, the pitcher is legal. He doesn't like that answer and keeps whining, so I tell him that the pitcher is legal and let's play. During the next two pitches, I get loud comments from both coaches: "She did it again!" "You can't see that?!?" "It's happening every pitch!" I call time and calmly approach the head coach to let him know that he has made his opinion known and there will be no further discussion of the pitcher's footwork.

The third out comes and both coaches approach my partner at the plate to further complain. I retreat to my between innings position in short right field. He tells them that they are talking to the wrong umpire, but they keep on going. As the assisstant coach is walking away, he loudly says something about how we (umpires) need to learn more, then he points at me and says: "Especially him, out there!" At this point, I excused him from the remainder of the game.

How hard to understand was "no further discussion"?

Unlike NCAA, answering questions from an assistant coach during an ASA game is not a requirement. If the head coach has questions about the other teams pitcher's mechanics, let the assistant coach know you will address the issue with the head coach if s/he has questions. If approached by the head coach I would ask the coach why they think the pitcher is pitching illegally. Then assure the coach you will continue watching and if there's an infraction it will called and that it's time to play ball now.

When the third out came and both coaches approached your partner at the plate, why did you retreat to your between innings position? With two coaches on your partner you should have been directing the assistant coach to the dugout. Never allow coaches to gang up on your partner. If the coach attacks you or your partner on a personal level, it may be time for them to leave the game.

[socalumps]

Answering questions from an assistant coach is a requirement in NCAA?

[MichaelVA2000]

Originally Posted by socalumps

Answering questions from an assistant coach is a requirement in NCAA?

This was addressed at length at the NCAA clinic in Atlanta. They now want us to answer questions regarding a play from any coach. Analogies they used were:

On a close play at first base who is more likely to have had the better view of the play, the head coach in the coaching box at third or the assistant coach in the coaching box at first? More often than not it's the assistant coach who had the better view.

or

You've called an illegal pitch and the pitching coach comes out and questions you about why the pitch was illegal instead of the head coach.

Two examples of when it would warrent a chat with a coach other than the head coach.

[socalumps]

Thanks.

Having it as an option makes more sense than it being a requirement.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by socalumps

Thanks.

Having it as an option makes more sense than it being a requirement.

It should always be an option, but NCAA softball is a coach-oriented sport when regarding rules and officiating, so you just have to expect some level of.....I'll leave that to your imagination.

[azbigdawg]

Originally Posted by Andy

Just a rant.....

18u game Saturday, ASA rules, I'm BU.

Team A replaces their pitcher in the third inning after Team B get a few hits.
Team A pitcher's footwork is peculiar looking, but not illegal in my judgement.

Between innings, as I am cleaning the pitcher's plate, Team B assistant coach, who was coaching first base, asks me if the pitcher is illegal. I tell him that I have not seen anything illegal. I was in C position the entire time she was pitching in the inning, so I was waiting to get a look from A position to see if I could see anything different. She was pushing hard off the PP, and there was minimal drag with the pivot foot until it was about 6 inches in front of the pitchers plate. She was not leaping and not replanting with a second pushoff, so I left it alone.

During the next inning she was pitching, Team B head coach calls time and comes to ask me about the pitcher's footwork. I tell him that, in my judgement, the pitcher is legal. He doesn't like that answer and keeps whining, so I tell him that the pitcher is legal and let's play. During the next two pitches, I get loud comments from both coaches: "She did it again!" "You can't see that?!?" "It's happening every pitch!" I call time and calmly approach the head coach to let him know that he has made his opinion known and there will be no further discussion of the pitcher's footwork.

The third out comes and both coaches approach my partner at the plate to further complain. I retreat to my between innings position in short right field. He tells them that they are talking to the wrong umpire, but they keep on going. As the assisstant coach is walking away, he loudly says something about how we (umpires) need to learn more, then he points at me and says: "Especially him, out there!" At this point, I excused him from the remainder of the game.

How hard to understand was "no further discussion"?

Thanks for the extra work, Andy... I'll see if I cant flood your desk with ejection reports during high school season.....

[socalumps]

IRISHMAFIA<

Interesting opinion. Where have you obtained your information? Or data?


so you just have to expect some level of.....I'll leave that to your imagination.

More than ASA or other affiliations or other sports?

I haven't found that to be the case!

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by socalumps

IRISHMAFIA<

Interesting opinion. Where have you obtained your information? Or data?


so you just have to expect some level of.....I'll leave that to your imagination.

More than ASA or other affiliations or other sports?

I haven't found that to be the case!

Let me see. Div I coach telling umpires at a clinic that "you will call our games the way we tell you or you won't work."

And to even think there is a comparison to ASA? Now, that's funny.

[socalumps]

Not tryin to get into a pissin match but....

Is your data (information) current?

This coach who said this...said it when?? Since the advent of managed conferences? Which conferences does this coach assign. I am not aware of any NCAA coaches who assign thier own games...if they do that is not as per NCAA approval. I didn't know there are such a thing as Division I clinics.

I heard these types of threats several years ago myself...but none recently...and certianly none approved by the SUIP or NCAA.

As far as comparing to other intities...ASA rules are all approved by commisioners? Some input comes from player reps, committees and NUS, perhaps other non umpire types? Which could lead to some of the frustration many of us have with rules, their effects and their wording?
Yes, NCAA rules are approved by a coaches rules committee with input from the NUIP staff and an umpire representative. This is different how?

ASA and most other affiliation's local umpire assignments are under the ultimate jurisdiction of a commisioner and sometimes when they get really important, regional or national approval?

Having served in an administrative capacity on both levels I can support the goals of each as they aim to serve different constituencies. And serve them well in my opinion.

I guess I just get a little concerned when ASA, NCAA or any other well intentioned group are catagorically mis-represented.

Opinions are like...."I'll leave that to your imagination".....everyone has one!

But will the facts and accurate information support them?

[SC Ump]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

... Div I coach ... at a clinic ...

Originally Posted by socalumps

... I didn't know there are such a thing as Division I clinics.

... accurate information ...

Welcome to the board. Just raise your hand if you have trouble keeping up with the group.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by socalumps

Not tryin to get into a pissin match but....

Is your data (information) current?

This coach who said this...said it when?? Since the advent of managed conferences? Which conferences does this coach assign. I am not aware

I guess I should stop right here, but that wouldn't be fun

of any NCAA coaches who assign thier own games...if they do that is not as per NCAA approval. I didn't know there are such a thing as Division I clinics.

This was a few years back, it was an Ivy League coach and took place immediately after the satellite clinic transmission ended. Like I said, a few years back. BTW, where did I say it was a "Div I clinic"?

I heard these types of threats several years ago myself...but none recently...and certianly none approved by the SUIP or NCAA.

WTF is a "SUIP"? Other than 'Pius' backwards. And the NCAA has nothing to do with assignments during the season. The conference as a whole determines which officials/umpire association with which they will deal. Many conferences restrict their members to this association, but a few still allow the school to select an association with which to deal.

An assigner is on speed dial of every coach's phone. It is not unusual for an assigner to get an earful from an unsatisfied coach. Enough coaches in a conference have a problem with their umpires, that association may not have that contract the next year and that would make for some very unhappy umpires.

As far as comparing to other intities...ASA rules are all approved by commisioners? Some input comes from player reps, committees and NUS, perhaps other non umpire types? Which could lead to some of the frustration many of us have with rules, their effects and their wording?

You like using a question mark?

Actually, the commissioners carry only about 40% of the votes. The umpires only have 15 total votes while the player reps can control the council if they ever banded together as a unit, but that is not going to happen. There isn't that much confusion with the rules or the wording.

Yes, NCAA rules are approved by a coaches rules committee with input from the NUIP staff and an umpire representative. This is different how?

It is a smaller, less diverse group and on certain subjects is probably heavily influenced by the NFCA. And that is okay if it is the way they want to run their business.

ASA and most other affiliation's local umpire assignments are under the ultimate jurisdiction of a commisioner and sometimes when they get really important, regional or national approval?

Okay, if you say so. I guess that depends on what type of commissioner you have. In my area, the UIC controls the umpire assignments in championship play and is responsible for selecting and submitting umpires for regional or national assignments. Other than that, each local association assigns their own leagues.

Having served in an administrative capacity on both levels I can support the goals of each as they aim to serve different constituencies. And serve them well in my opinion.

I guess I just get a little concerned when ASA, NCAA or any other well intentioned group are catagorically mis-represented.

You mean like the many people in SoCal think that SoCal ASA is ASA and that the Yellow Book is the bible?

Opinions are like...."I'll leave that to your imagination".....everyone has one!

To what you are referring, yes. To what I was referring when I posted that line, no.

But will the facts and accurate information support them?

I guess it's too early to start tuning that piano

[MichaelVA2000]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

WTF is a "SUIP"? Other than 'Pius' backwards.

"SUIP" Stands for Softball Umpire Improvement Program. It's a term some of the NCAA clinicians have begun using.

[socalumps]

The last sattelite clinic was oh...7-8 years ago. So I can understand some of the outdated information. The SUIP has been in existence for 8 seasons! It is a pretty well known program amongst NCAA umpires.

Glad that Deleware has such a strong ASA umpire leadership program. Nothing was meant to blanket ASA or NCAA, nor to insinuate that Socal or NCAA was better or worse. Don't know why it made someone so defensive.

Just thought a little updated and current information on misconceptions might be worthy of consideration.

[socalumps]

Originally Posted by socalumps

The last sattelite clinic was oh...7-8 years ago. So I can understand some of the outdated information. The SUIP has been in existence for 8 seasons! It is a pretty well known program amongst NCAA umpires.

Glad that Deleware has such a strong ASA umpire leadership program. Nothing was meant to blanket ASA or NCAA, nor to insinuate that Socal or NCAA was better or worse. Don't know why it made someone so defensive.

Just thought a little updated and current information on misconceptions might be worthy of consideration.

In fact I appreciated your information on your group.