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Old Thu Sep 06, 2007, 11:44am
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Red face Three Minute Clinic! HELP!!!

After having not umpired any diamond sports for 20 years, I find myself pressed back into service at the last minute. I'll be umpiring a women's slow-pitch church tournament tonight. ASA rules, but pretty laid back . Not sure if it'll be one man mechanics or two (depends on whether the "scheduler" can find a second umpire).

Question 1: Should I wait until game time to panic, or should I begin panicking now as part of my pre-game?

Question 2: Can you give me a mini clinic to get me up-to-speed enough to survive tonight, and maybe even do a good job?

Thank you!
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Old Thu Sep 06, 2007, 11:58am
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Make sure you understand the pitch height rule for the league (ASA -12ft max, 6 ft min), pitch count to start the at bat (sometimes 1 and 1). Be consistant on your ball /strike calls....After the ball is hit, move out from behind the plate and get a good position to make the call, after hesitating to mentally "see" the play. Most mistakes occur by calling safe/out too fast.
Anticipate where throws will go and hustle to a good angle position. Hopefully you know the rules for slowpitch. "Sell" the close calls w/ authority. Have fun. Most womens SP games play at a slower pace, so you should have time to make the right calls.
The biggest conflicts you will face are ball/strike calls, and close safe/out calls. Outside of any rules you may not be sure of, you should do ok.....
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Old Thu Sep 06, 2007, 01:27pm
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20 years

Quote:
Originally Posted by Back In The Saddle
After having not umpired any diamond sports for 20 years, I find myself pressed back into service at the last minute. I'll be umpiring a women's slow-pitch church tournament tonight. ASA rules, but pretty laid back . Not sure if it'll be one man mechanics or two (depends on whether the "scheduler" can find a second umpire).

Question 1: Should I wait until game time to panic, or should I begin panicking now as part of my pre-game?

Question 2: Can you give me a mini clinic to get me up-to-speed enough to survive tonight, and maybe even do a good job?

Thank you!
Have Fun, Enjoy the Game, and Do your Best
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Old Thu Sep 06, 2007, 02:12pm
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Remember three things and you can't go wrong:

1. In ASA, no advantageous fourth-out appeal is permitted on a runner who did not score.

2. In ASA, if the batter hits a high fly over foul territory and passes the runner on 1B while the ball is still live (i.e., before the ball lands foul), the BR is out.

3. ASA does not observe "last time by" with regard to missed bases.

That should cover it. Good luck!
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Old Thu Sep 06, 2007, 05:32pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by greymule
Remember three things and you can't go wrong:

1. In ASA, no advantageous fourth-out appeal is permitted on a runner who did not score.

2. In ASA, if the batter hits a high fly over foul territory and passes the runner on 1B while the ball is still live (i.e., before the ball lands foul), the BR is out.

3. ASA does not observe "last time by" with regard to missed bases.

That should cover it. Good luck!
I guess I have been out longer than I thought. I don't understand 1 & 3 at all.
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Old Thu Sep 06, 2007, 06:36pm
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I don't understand 1 & 3 at all.

Well, you better get crackin'. These issues come up all the time in women's church league play.

Here goes:

1. Abel on 3B, Baker on 1B, 2 out. Charles gets a hit off the right field fence. Abel scores, and Charles misses 1B on his way for an extra-base hit. Baker is thrown out at home for the third out, and Charles stops on 2B. The defense appeals Charles's miss of 1B. Ruling: Appeal denied. There are already 3 outs, and Charles didn't score. Therefore, Abel's run still counts, whereas it would not count if the advantageous fourth out on Charles was allowed.

3. Abel on 1B. Baker lines a ball into right center. Abel rounds 2B and is on his way to 3B when F9 makes a diving catch. Abel misses 2B on the way back to 1B. Abel slides safely back into 1B, and the ball bounces away from F3, allowing Abel to advance to 2B. With Abel standing on 2B, the defense appeals Abel's miss of 2B on the return. Ruling: Even though Abel touched 2B "last time by," he is out for missing 2B on his return to 1B.

I realize that tonight's game has already started, so I'm probably too late. Sorry.

Let us know how things went!
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Last edited by greymule; Thu Sep 06, 2007 at 06:38pm.
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Old Thu Sep 06, 2007, 08:38pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by greymule

3. Abel on 1B. Baker lines a ball into right center. Abel rounds 2B and is on his way to 3B when F9 makes a diving catch. Abel misses 2B on the way back to 1B. Abel slides safely back into 1B, and the ball bounces away from F3, allowing Abel to advance to 2B. With Abel standing on 2B, the defense appeals Abel's miss of 2B on the return. Ruling: Even though Abel touched 2B "last time by," he is out for missing 2B on his return to 1B.

I realize that tonight's game has already started, so I'm probably too late.
Good, because I believe this one is incorrect.
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Old Thu Sep 06, 2007, 10:50pm
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Good, because I believe this one is incorrect.

I wish it was incorrect, since I think the "last time by" rule makes sense. But I posed the question a couple of years ago, and you [Irish] answered it this way. (Maybe the thread is retrievable.) Months later, I checked with Bob Mauger, and he also said there's no "last time by." Also no distinction in ASA between "miss" and "gross miss." (This would follow if there's no "last time by," which would apply to a regular miss but not a gross miss.)
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Last edited by greymule; Thu Sep 06, 2007 at 10:55pm.
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Old Thu Sep 06, 2007, 11:03pm
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Hey, I found it (from 12/24/04):

Originally posted by greymule
Now I'm very confused. So in ASA a runner cannot correct a previous miss by touching the base the last time by.

In that case:

1. Abel on 1B. Baker lines to right-center. Abel rounds (touches) 2B and F9 makes the catch. Abel misses 2B on the return but makes it back to 1B as F9's throw gets away. Abel tags 1B and runs to 2B.

Abel is standing on 2B when the defense tags him and appeals that he missed 2B on the return to 1B.

No last time by. Out.


[Answer from Irish]
Correct. Since all bases must be touched in order, to safely return to 1B without jeopardy of being out on appeal, he must actually touch 2B, then 1B. Now, at this point, he is free to advance without compromise.
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Last edited by greymule; Thu Sep 06, 2007 at 11:12pm.
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Old Fri Sep 07, 2007, 07:29am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by greymule
Good, because I believe this one is incorrect.

I wish it was incorrect, since I think the "last time by" rule makes sense. But I posed the question a couple of years ago, and you [Irish] answered it this way. (Maybe the thread is retrievable.) Months later, I checked with Bob Mauger, and he also said there's no "last time by." Also no distinction in ASA between "miss" and "gross miss." (This would follow if there's no "last time by," which would apply to a regular miss but not a gross miss.)
Believe it or not, I vaguely remember this even though I hate the personification of plays. I went back looking for something I thought was there and it was not.

The runner is still out, but not for missing 2B. My error was a presumption and obviously, it was wrong.

Going back to 2B, the runner can simply state that he knew he missed the base and that is why he is on 2B. Problem is, being on 2B at this point means he hasn't yet returned to 1B on the caught fly ball.

The runner would be out on that appeal, not for missing 2B.
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Old Fri Sep 07, 2007, 10:40am
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Thumbs up

Quote:
Originally Posted by greymule
Let us know how things went!
Oddly enough both issues came up. But since the players were not named Able, Baker or Charlie, I wasn't sure what to do and just ejected them!

Everything went well. I had worked four years of ASA when I was younger, and it came back surprisingly well. I was by myself the first three games. I had the bases on the fourth. The only thing that felt weird was using "the carpet." I'd never done that before.

Thank you, archangel. I called a few illegal pitches because I'd been reminded to look for them. And I realized somewhere in the second game that I was starting to hurry my calls a little bit, so I slowed them down.

The only rules issue I had was what to do with the runners on an infield fly. They advance at their own risk, correct?

We had one injury. A lady in a hotbox dove back into third and dislocated a finger and the third baseman accidentally stepped on it, cutting it open. It was a little gruesome, and every lady in the place had to come have a look Lucky for her, my partner is an orthopedic surgeon. He "reduced" the finger (medical term for putting it back in place, I guess) to reduce the pain and sent her off to the ER to get it looked at.

The doc and I are on again tonight. We've got four games (two one-man, two two-man) including the final. Five games if we screw that one up. I hope this "beginners luck" holds out for just one more day.

Thanks again for the help!
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Old Fri Sep 07, 2007, 11:17am
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Going back to 2B, the runner can simply state that he knew he missed the base and that is why he is on 2B. Problem is, being on 2B at this point means he hasn't yet returned to 1B on the caught fly ball.

The runner would be out on that appeal, not for missing 2B.


So if the defense appeals, the umpire can't make a call until he knows why the runner went to 2B. If the appeal is for the missed base, he asks the runner, "Why did you go to 2B?" If the runner says, "Because I missed 2B," then the call is safe. If he says, "Because the ball got away," then the call is out. On the other hand, if the appeal is for leaving 1B too soon, and the runner answers, "I went to 2B because I had a chance to advance," then the call is safe. If he says, "Because I missed 2B," then the call is out. Does the runner have Miranda rights?

This interesting interpretation is new to me. If, with Abel back on 1B, the throw entered DBT, Abel could take his award (3B if he was between 2B and 1B when the throw was made, home if between 3B and 2B), but he would first have to run to touch 2B to correct one mistake, then return to 1B to correct the other. No wonder another code came up with "last time by."

The answer I got from ASA in March 2006 was simply, "The runner must touch in reverse order. Out on appeal," which I took to mean for missing 2B, not for leaving 1B too soon after having "negated" his return by advancing to touch a missed base. I assume that ASA would have mentioned leaving 1B too soon if that factor entered into the mix.
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Old Fri Sep 07, 2007, 05:24pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by greymule
This interesting interpretation is new to me. If, with Abel back on 1B, the throw entered DBT, Abel could take his award (3B if he was between 2B and 1B when the throw was made, home if between 3B and 2B), but he would first have to run to touch 2B to correct one mistake, then return to 1B to correct the other. No wonder another code came up with "last time by."
Oh, I admit I screwed up. The scenario above is different because you cannot have a live ball appeal if the ball entered DBT. Once the ball goes out of play, the umpire must give the runner ample time to correct any baserunning mistakes, then make the award.

Quote:
The answer I got from ASA in March 2006 was simply, "The runner must touch in reverse order. Out on appeal," which I took to mean for missing 2B, not for leaving 1B too soon after having "negated" his return by advancing to touch a missed base. I assume that ASA would have mentioned leaving 1B too soon if that factor entered into the mix.
Well, why wouldn't it enter into the mix? If the runner in the scenario above stopped on 2B and then was awarded home and continued without a correction, I would think that the missed base is still available for appeal.
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Old Sat Sep 08, 2007, 04:34pm
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[QUOTE=
The only rules issue I had was what to do with the runners on an infield fly. They advance at their own risk, correct?[/QUOTE]

Correct!===just remember that the only diff between an IFF and a pop up , is that the batter is automatically out...
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Old Sat Sep 08, 2007, 05:21pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by archangel
Correct!===just remember that the only diff between an IFF and a pop up , is that the batter is automatically out...
Thank you. Somebody said something along the lines of "the runners advance at their own risk" and that triggered a memory deep within the cobwebs But my adventures with the IFF rule did not cease there. The second night it took me a while to dial in on a popup v. a line drive with some arc on it, catchable v. not catchable. But I eventually got it sorted out.

But most of all I had a great time. Now I'm thinking I need to talk my wife into letting me do softball in addition to basketball.

Thanks again for all the help, everyone.
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