3rd out on appeal

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by Steve M

Edited to add - since they are experienced Cecil, why were they having a hard time with this? I can see a relatively inexperienced ump having trouble getting hold of this but would think it's pretty easily grasped by those with a fair amount of experience.

Exactly, which is why I asked for comment on the apparent reasons.

And apparently I was misled by the ASA wording.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by CecilOne

"On an appeal play, the force out is determined when the appeal is made, not when the infraction occurred. "

That is correct. If a runner was forced to a base and missed it, it only remains a force if no following runner was retired prior to the appeal. If the forced runner missed 2B, but the BR was retired prior to an appeal at 2B, it is no longer a force since a succeeding runner has been retired. That makes it a timing play.

On a play at first, the BR who passes the base prior to the throw arriving, therefore is considered to have touched the base, but is still susceptable to be retired on a live ball appeal. If the BR is successfully appealed, s/he never reached 1B safely which means no runs may score on that play.

[JPRempe]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

I don't know what you are reading, but it certainly isn't the original post of this thread.

Maybe I'm just seeing things.

I wasn't entirely clean on my points. In the OP, the runner is out. Piece of cake.

If a runner misses the 1B bag and the defensive player tags him, it's not an appeal play because I will not have called him safe. He didn't touch the base, the defensive player realized this, and continued the effort of making the defensive play.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by JPRempe

Maybe I'm just seeing things.

I wasn't entirely clean on my points. In the OP, the runner is out. Piece of cake.

If a runner misses the 1B bag and the defensive player tags him, it's not an appeal play because I will not have called him safe. He didn't touch the base, the defensive player realized this, and continued the effort of making the defensive play.

Which, speaking ASA, is incorrect. Once a runner passes a base, they are considered to have touched that base and is ruled safe, by rule. It is a missed base appeal made during a live ball that is considered a subsequent play.

ASA does not take what, by some, is consider the baseball stance of a "no call" when a runner does not touch a base.

[JPRempe]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

Which, speaking ASA, is incorrect. Once a runner passes a base, they are considered to have touched that base and is ruled safe, by rule. It is a missed base appeal made during a live ball that is considered a subsequent play.

ASA does not take what, by some, is consider the baseball stance of a "no call" when a runner does not touch a base.

Too bad that's what I was taught at 3 different clinics this year...

[JPRempe]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

Which, speaking ASA, is incorrect. Once a runner passes a base, they are considered to have touched that base and is ruled safe, by rule. It is a missed base appeal made during a live ball that is considered a subsequent play.

ASA does not take what, by some, is consider the baseball stance of a "no call" when a runner does not touch a base.

Again, you don't call him safe if there is no defensive play made (and if you do, please show me the appropriate rules, because I haven't read/noticed it). Just like we've (we've - meaning my association) been taught not to call safe/out if the ball is dropped at 1B by the defender on an attempted defensive play (so long as the defensive player doesn't recover before the B/R gets there, that is). If your UIC/region is teaching something different than what mine is, then the problem does not lie with me, but rather the training.

That's been my entire point of this particular sub-matter. Either you call every runner that passes/touches 1B safe (even if they hit an inside the park HR or an OTF HR), or you don't call anything at all since there has not been a defensive play yet made to either the 1B bag or the batter/runner. I used the example of a line drive to LF for just this purpose (although I may have clouded you guys thoughts because you thought I was referring to the OP).

Am I still confusing you?

[greymule]

If the BR misses 1B, overruns the bag, and doesn't make some sort of move toward 2B, it's obvious that a subsequent tag is an appeal of the miss. (If the BR both misses 1B and makes a turn, then the fielder must be clear about why he is tagging the BR, because the effect on the run scoring is different.) And if a runner misses home, a tag attempt after the runner has passed the plate is also obviously an appeal. This holds both in ASA and in OBR.

It's different at 2B and 3B, where the tag is of the runner simply being off the base unless the fielder clearly makes an appeal. And OBR and ASA treat that play differently. ASA allows an immediate appeal even while the runner is in the vicinity; OBR does not. (In ASA, if the BR missed 1B, overran, and is returning, F3 could appeal by tagging the base. In OBR, F3 would have to tag the BR to appeal.)

Abel on 3B, Baker on 1B, 2 out. Charles grounds to F6. Abel scores. F6 throws too late to 2B but Baker has missed 2B and slid beyond it. Now:

1. F4 immediately appeals the miss and tags Baker. ASA: Third out on appeal, run nullified on third-out force play. OBR: No immediate appeal permitted, since Baker is in the vicinity of the base. Therefore, Baker out merely on the tag, and Abel's run counts. No fourth-out appeal permitted, either.

2. F4 merely tags Baker beyond the base. ASA: Three outs. Run scores. No fourth-out appeal allowed on the missed base, since Baker did not score. OBR: Three outs. No fourth-out appeal permitted. Run scores.

ASA does not take what, by some, is consider the baseball stance of a "no call" when a runner does not touch a base.

In baseball, I call the runner safe if he beats the throw but misses 1B. Same at home. That seems to be what the other umps do also. A no-call is an announcement to the entire ballpark that the runner missed the base.

Am I still confusing you?

Yes. Are you saying that you would make a no-call on a BR who beats the throw but misses 1B?

[JPRempe]

Originally Posted by greymule

Yes. Are you saying that you would make a no-call on a BR who beats the throw but misses 1B?

Did the defensive player receive the ball and have his/her foot on the bag? If so, then yes, that play would require a call to be made. If no defensive play is made/attempted, how can I call the B/R safe?

Where in the 2007 ASA rulebook does it say that I must call the B/R safe if the B/R beats the ball out to 1B but never touches the bag? It just doesn't make any kind of sense to me at all if I am forced by ASA rule to make an incorrect call, and then upon the ensuing appeal reverse myself even though I knew the initial ruling was incorrect.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by CecilOne

With two outs, a BR overran 1st without touching it. The fielder realized it and tagged the runner as an appeal and the runner was out.

Clarify "fielder", please. Are you referring to F3 receiving the throw at 1B?

[SRW]

Originally Posted by JPRempe

Did the defensive player receive the ball and have his/her foot on the bag? If so, then yes, that play would require a call to be made. If no defensive play is made/attempted, how can I call the B/R safe?

Where in the 2007 ASA rulebook does it say that I must call the B/R safe if the B/R beats the ball out to 1B but never touches the bag? It just doesn't make any kind of sense to me at all if I am forced by ASA rule to make an incorrect call, and then upon the ensuing appeal reverse myself even though I knew the initial ruling was incorrect.

Wow, how arrogant.

If the BR touches the base, you call the BR safe. If the BR misses the base, the BR is considered to have touched it. You hesitate slightly to allow the players to finish the play. If no play is made, you declare the BR safe. If they appeal properly, you call them out. You do it this way so you don't tip off either team that the play may not be over. Also, they're assumed safe until put out. If the proper appeal is not made, the BR is safe.

And where is all this? You're right, it's not in the rulebook. It's in the Umpire Manual. Perhaps the most needed, and least read portion of the entire book.

[JPRempe]

Originally Posted by SRW

Wow, how arrogant.

If the BR touches the base, you call the BR safe. If the BR misses the base, the BR is considered to have touched it. You hesitate slightly to allow the players to finish the play. If no play is made, you declare the BR safe. If they appeal properly, you call them out. You do it this way so you don't tip off either team that the play may not be over. Also, they're assumed safe until put out. If the proper appeal is not made, the BR is safe.

And where is all this? You're right, it's not in the rulebook. It's in the Umpire Manual. Perhaps the most needed, and least read portion of the entire book.

Way to a$$ume that by saying "2007 ASA rulebook" you thought I had somehow completely forgotten/neglected/blown off the part about the umpires manual (which is also inclusive). I guess it's my fault for a$$uming that every umpire/person on this discussion board actually knows that this book can be referred to in several ways/manners other than the exact and singular description for which you have developed for said published material.

You do not call the B/R safe if they touch the base and no defensive play is being made. I know this is a difficult concept to grasp for you over signaling types, but it's not in the "2007 ASA Official Rules of Softball, Umpire Edition (which includes the Umpire Manual). The fact of the matter is neither the book nor my training has led me to this practice nor anyone else in my association. I do not follow the B/R around the bases during an inside the park HR, signalling safe at 1B, 2B, 3B and HP as the B/R touches each applicable base. If you do, you're doing something seriously wrong. I don't care if it's just 1B and you're calling that...you're WRONG!

I call to your attention page 241 in the 2007 ASA Rules/regs/Umpire's manual/whatevertheheckyouwanttocallitbook, which states (under the helpful hints for base umpires section);

6. Don't make a call until the catch or play is completed
(the play is not completed until either the runner touches the 1B bag, or until the defensive players completes their play attempt against the B/R).

12. A 'safe' signal or verbal call is not necessary when the thrown ball gets by the defensive player
(or in the case I keep talking about, either never gets to defensive player F3 in the first place or gets to F3 late and he's off the bag. If F3 is on the bag, that's an out plain as day.)

Now, in the rules supplement on page 133 of the afore mentioned "book", it does state;

1. Appeals

L. Missing First Base Before the Throw Arrives. When a runner passes first base before the throw arrives, they are considered to have touched the base unless properly appealed. On appeals involving the double base, when the batter-runner touches the white rather than the colored portion and a play is made, the same procedure applies. When an appeal is made in both situations, it must be made prior to the runner returning to first base while the ball is live.


No where does it state that I "must" signal the runner safe.

[SRW]

Originally Posted by JPRempe

You do not call the B/R safe if they touch the base and no defensive play is being made.

I totally agree. My post referred to a play being made, not just a missed base and then three years later something else happens.

Originally Posted by JPRempe

I do not follow the B/R around the bases during an inside the park HR, signalling safe at 1B, 2B, 3B and HP as the B/R touches each applicable base.

Good. Doing so would not be correct.

Originally Posted by JPRempe

I call to your attention page 241 ...

Blah Blah... not relevant.

[JPRempe]

Originally Posted by SRW

Wow, how arrogant.

If the BR touches the base, you call the BR safe. If the BR misses the base, the BR is considered to have touched it. You hesitate slightly to allow the players to finish the play. If no play is made, you declare the BR safe.

I can't find the wording as such in the '07 Regs. Would you please cite the rule or page number where we are instructed to do so so (that I may "correct" my mechanics)?

Originally Posted by SRW

And where is all this? You're right, it's not in the rulebook. It's in the Umpire Manual. Perhaps the most needed, and least read portion of the entire book.

I agree with your statement, but without supporting documentation, I can not agree with your assessment of the particular situation I keep describing.

[SRW]

Originally Posted by JPRempe

I can't find the wording as such in the '07 Regs.

That's because I paraphrased.

Originally Posted by JPRempe

Would you please cite the rule or page number...

Sure. Start reading on page 188. You can stop on page 264.

[JPRempe]

Originally Posted by SRW

That's because I paraphrased.

Sure. Start reading on page 188. You can stop on page 264.

And you call me arrogant.

I'll give you a hint...it's not going to be on any of those pages you listed.