3rd out on appeal

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

That is correct. If a runner was forced to a base and missed it, it only remains a force if no following runner was retired prior to the appeal. If the forced runner missed 2B, but the BR was retired prior to an appeal at 2B, it is no longer a force since a succeeding runner has been retired. That makes it a timing play.

On a play at first, the BR who passes the base prior to the throw arriving, therefore is considered to have touched the base, but is still susceptable to be retired on a live ball appeal. If the BR is successfully appealed, s/he never reached 1B safely which means no runs may score on that play.

OK, so the wording which misled me is about determining if a non-BR force is still in effect, so an appeal of a missed 1st base is treated as BR put out before 1st.

Which mean that in all the rule sets that I listed in the OP as having a rule, the "run" does not count.

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

Clarify "fielder", please. Are you referring to F3 receiving the throw at 1B?

Generally yes, but would it matter if F4, F1, F9, etal were covering the base or perhaps retrieved the ball (thrown or loose) to make the appeal tag?

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by Steve M
Edited to add - since they are experienced Cecil, why were they having a hard time with this? I can see a relatively inexperienced ump having trouble getting hold of this but would think it's pretty easily grasped by those with a fair amount of experience.

Originally Posted by CecilOne

Exactly, which is why I asked for comment on the apparent reasons.

And apparently I was misled by the ASA wording.

My OP asked for comments on the why of the uncertainty, including my misled reading of the ASA rule, even when knowing it should be "no run" in my other sanctions. That's what I wanted to discuss, not what the rule is and not mechanics. Partly because there are a number of rules like this and understanding why they are hard to get should help with learning. My list is down to:
- wording different even when meaning agrees
- not clear without "case book" or POE in some books
- umpires who do both sports
- infrequent occurrence

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by CecilOne

Generally yes, but would it matter if F4, F1, F9, etal were covering the base or perhaps retrieved the ball (thrown or loose) to make the appeal tag?

No, it would not have as long as the person to which you are referring is that whom is covering 1B at the time of the play.

Thank you.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Original scenario in question:

With two outs, a BR overran 1st without touching it. The fielder realized it and tagged the runner as an appeal and the runner was out.

It has been clarified that the "fielder" was the player who received the throw at 1B in an attempt to retire the BR.

L. Missing First Base Before the Throw Arrives. When a runner passes first base before the throw arrives, they are considered to have touched the base unless properly appealed. On appeals involving the double base, when the batter-runner touches the white rather than the colored portion and a play is made, the same procedure applies. When an appeal is made in both situations, it must be made prior to the runner returning to first base while the ball is live.

This is a rules supplement, not a mechanic. It does however show that in the OP the BR was considered to have touched the base by rule (8.3.B) which means the BR is not out in accordance with 8.2.B.

No where does it state that I "must" signal the runner safe.

"Must", no it doesn't say "must". However, the proper mechanic is as follow:

Now that the rules have deteremined that this runner is safe, the mechanic as noted on page 228 of the Umpire Manual states: The base umpire indicates decisions through simultaneous verbal and visual signals. Umpires signal SAFE when a runner has beaten a play. They punctuate a vigorous SAFE signal with a verbal SAFE call.

Please note that it reads "beaten the play", not "is safe in the absolute".

ASA, and many of the other softball rule sets, consider an appeal for a missed base a separate play and not a continuation.

On any play like this the umpire should hesitate to make sure s/he got the full picture of the play and then make the call. The manual also states is should be a hesitation, not a delay. Even on a similar situation at home, the mechanic calls for a hesitation and if the catcher does not make a tag on the play, to call the runner safe.

I'm done with this one.

[JPRempe]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

Now that the rules have deteremined that this runner is safe, the mechanic as noted on page 228 of the Umpire Manual states: The base umpire indicates decisions through simultaneous verbal and visual signals. Umpires signal SAFE when a runner has beaten a play. They punctuate a vigorous SAFE signal with a verbal SAFE call.

Please note that it reads "beaten the play", not "is safe in the absolute".

ASA, and many of the other softball rule sets, consider an appeal for a missed base a separate play and not a continuation.

On any play like this the umpire should hesitate to make sure s/he got the full picture of the play and then make the call. The manual also states is should be a hesitation, not a delay. Even on a similar situation at home, the mechanic calls for a hesitation and if the catcher does not make a tag on the play, to call the runner safe.

I'm done with this one.

I understand this completely, but it is not correct for my sub-topic/spinoff. That particular instance has yet to be answered by anyone here, and the best advice I get from my fellow brothers in blue/grey is "Sure. Start reading on page 188. You can stop on page 264." Too bad there is no specific answer in those pages which would satisfy my situation.

Again, the situation I am speaking of is as follows:

B/R hits a sharp ground ball deep in the hole in the vicinity of F6. F6 fields the ball cleanly, but does not attempt to make a throw to F3 at 1B. The B/R does not actually touch the 1B bag, but passes it. Since there is no defensive play being made on this B/R at 1B by F3 or any other defensive positional player, am I required by rule, instruction, mechanic, supplement/whatever to signal and verbally call this runner safe?

Again, please understand that I am talking about my specific (above mentioned) sub-topic/spinoff, and not the OP specific situation. Can anyone here answer this very simple question?


For the record, this is how my entire association has been trained (in the specific instance I am speaking about - no call, even if the B/R misses the 1B bag if there is no play being made upon him/1B bag at the time of the B/R missing 1B, but passing it).

[NCASAUmp]

With the play described by JPRempe, I have no call unless an infielder appeals the missed bag before the runner returns to the bag. No signal, no verbal call, no wink to the runner, no double-fist pump. This is no different from if he hit the ball to the outfield and got an in-the-park home run, but missed 1B.

[Ed Maeder]

This is different then an in the park home run with first base missed, in that this must be a live ball appeal as compared to a dead ball appeal. No play no call.

[NCASAUmp]

Originally Posted by Ed Maeder

This is different then an in the park home run with first base missed, in that this must be a live ball appeal as compared to a dead ball appeal. No play no call.

My point was what you do in the case of a missed bag. Until they appeal at the proper time, there's no call. That's all I was getting at.

[greymule]

B/R hits a sharp ground ball deep in the hole in the vicinity of F6. F6 fields the ball cleanly, but does not attempt to make a throw to F3 at 1B. The B/R does not actually touch the 1B bag, but passes it. Since there is no defensive play being made on this B/R at 1B by F3 or any other defensive positional player, am I required by rule, instruction, mechanic, supplement/whatever to signal and verbally call this runner safe?

No!