3rd out on appeal

[CecilOne]

I know this is a dead horse topic, but just for comment. A group of experienced umpires were discussing a play and could not agree on the rule. Although the play happened in a hardball game, the same issue exists in softball. I said it depended on which rule set in softball and I don't care about hardball.

With two outs, a BR overran 1st without touching it. The fielder realized it and tagged the runner as an appeal and the runner was out. Another runner touched HP before the appeal; raising the question of whether that should count as a run or the appeal out counted as a force. As I understand it, for appeals of what would have been a force play or a BR at 1st:

NFHS - no run
PONY - no run
USSSA - not specified
ASA - run counts
NCAA - no runs
others - ???

Even an experienced group of umps had trouble with this and I think the problem is:
- different from book to book
- wording different even when meaning agrees
- not clear without "case book" or POE in most books
- umpires who do both sports
- infrequent occurrence

Any comments?

[WestMichBlue]

Maybe I am not reading the OP properly, but I don't understand the fuss.

No run can count when the 3rd out is the B-R being put out before reaching 1B. Your B-R missed 1B, and was put out before touching 1B. End of discussion.

Forget the word force, that applies to other runners that are forced by the action of the B-R.

WMB

[celebur]

Originally Posted by WestMichBlue

Maybe I am not reading the OP properly, but I don't understand the fuss.

No run can count when the 3rd out is the B-R being put out before reaching 1B. Your B-R missed 1B, and was put out before touching 1B. End of discussion.

Forget the word force, that applies to other runners that are forced by the action of the B-R.

WMB

I do understand the fuss. . .because I once thought that all appeals for missing a base were automatically timing plays. But thanks to this board, I was corrected on this.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by CecilOne

I know this is a dead horse topic, but just for comment. A group of experienced umpires were discussing a play and could not agree on the rule. Although the play happened in a hardball game, the same issue exists in softball. I said it depended on which rule set in softball and I don't care about hardball.

With two outs, a BR overran 1st without touching it. The fielder realized it and tagged the runner as an appeal and the runner was out. Another runner touched HP before the appeal; raising the question of whether that should count as a run or the appeal out counted as a force. As I understand it, for appeals of what would have been a force play or a BR at 1st:

NFHS - no run
PONY - no run
USSSA - not specified
ASA - run counts
NCAA - no runs
others - ???

Even an experienced group of umps had trouble with this and I think the problem is:
- different from book to book
- wording different even when meaning agrees
- not clear without "case book" or POE in most books
- umpires who do both sports
- infrequent occurrence

Any comments?

Yeah, I'll comment. In ASA, the run does not count if the 3rd out was the result of a force out or the batter-runner being put out at 1B.

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

I don't know what you are reading, but it certainly isn't the original post of this thread.

Thanks.

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

Yeah, I'll comment. In ASA, the run does not count if the 3rd out was the result of a force out or the batter-runner being put out at 1B.

The wording in 5.5.B.1 misled me.
"On an appeal play, the force out is determined when the appeal is made, not when the infraction occurred. "

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by CecilOne

"On an appeal play, the force out is determined when the appeal is made, not when the infraction occurred. "

That is correct. If a runner was forced to a base and missed it, it only remains a force if no following runner was retired prior to the appeal. If the forced runner missed 2B, but the BR was retired prior to an appeal at 2B, it is no longer a force since a succeeding runner has been retired. That makes it a timing play.

On a play at first, the BR who passes the base prior to the throw arriving, therefore is considered to have touched the base, but is still susceptable to be retired on a live ball appeal. If the BR is successfully appealed, s/he never reached 1B safely which means no runs may score on that play.

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

That is correct. If a runner was forced to a base and missed it, it only remains a force if no following runner was retired prior to the appeal. If the forced runner missed 2B, but the BR was retired prior to an appeal at 2B, it is no longer a force since a succeeding runner has been retired. That makes it a timing play.

On a play at first, the BR who passes the base prior to the throw arriving, therefore is considered to have touched the base, but is still susceptable to be retired on a live ball appeal. If the BR is successfully appealed, s/he never reached 1B safely which means no runs may score on that play.

OK, so the wording which misled me is about determining if a non-BR force is still in effect, so an appeal of a missed 1st base is treated as BR put out before 1st.

Which mean that in all the rule sets that I listed in the OP as having a rule, the "run" does not count.

[Steve M]

I'm not counting this run in ASA, either - or any other sanctioning body's game, for that matter.

And now, I see Mike replied - so I'll take that as ASA's position.

Edited to add - since they are experienced Cecil, why were they having a hard time with this? I can see a relatively inexperienced ump having trouble getting hold of this but would think it's pretty easily grasped by those with a fair amount of experience.

[greymule]

or any other sanctioning body's game, for that matter.

OBR has some odd wrinkles on missed bases that are forces. For example: 2 out, Abel on 3B, Baker on 1B running on the pitch. Charles grounds to F6, whose throw to F4 is too late to get Baker at 2B. Abel scores. However, Charles slides by the base without touching it and is tagged out trying to return. Ruling: Charles is out, but Abel's run counts. The defense cannot then appeal Baker's miss of 2B. So if you were talking to a bunch of hardball umpires, I'm not surprised there was disagreement.

I am not sure whether OBR would extend those wrinkles to plays at 1B, since OBR treats 1B differently—it's technically not a force. ASA treats the out at 1B as a force, and considers the batter to have "occupied" home.

Note that in ASA, if the BR was not out on appeal but was instead thrown out at 2B for the third out, the defense could not then appeal at 1B and get an advantageous fourth out. In NCAA, and I assume Fed, the defense could get the advantageous fourth out on the BR.

[Steve M]

Wait a minute, part of your play was not an appeal.
"OBR has some odd wrinkles on missed bases that are forces. For example: 2 out, Abel on 3B, Baker on 1B running on the pitch. Charles grounds to F6, whose throw to F4 is too late to get Baker at 2B. Abel scores. However, Charles slides by the base without touching it and is tagged out trying to return. Ruling: Charles is out, but Abel's run counts. The defense cannot then appeal Baker's miss of 2B. So if you were talking to a bunch of hardball umpires, I'm not surprised there was disagreement."

Charles' sliding by the base and being tagged while trying to return to the base is identical in baseball & softball - that's a timing play and Abel's run will count in any softball sanctioning body I know about, along with any baseball sanctioning body I know about. That is not a missed base appeal.
In your play, your missed base appeal is a 4th out appeal. Some sanctioning bodies will accept this specific appeal while others will not - since Charles' run is not the run you want to take off the board.

[greymule]

Charles' sliding by the base and being tagged while trying to return to the base is identical in baseball & softball - that's a timing play and Abel's run will count in any softball sanctioning body I know about, along with any baseball sanctioning body I know about. That is not a missed base appeal.

In ASA, it is a missed base appeal if the fielder makes it so. ASA allows an immediate appeal of a missed base even if the runner is in the vicinity of the base. OBR does not.

[greymule]

In your play, your missed base appeal is a 4th out appeal. Some sanctioning bodies will accept this specific appeal while others will not

ASA is the only code I know of that won't allow that 4th out appeal (it's because the runner didn't score), and that's only since last year. But of course there may be others.

ASA case play 5.5.7

(FP only) With 2 outs, R1 on 3B, R2 on 2B, B5 strikes out, but the ball gets by F2. R1 scores and R2 is out of the plate. B3 failed to run to 1B and F2, after tagging R2, throws to F3 for the fourth out. Does the runner score? RULING: R1's run is not nullified. A "fourth out" appeal to nullify a run must be on the runner who has scored. (5-5C)

In the exact same case play 2 years ago, the run WAS nullified. However, ASA for some reason changed the rule, and as far as I know ASA stands alone in this ruling.

But as I think about this play, is the fourth out at 1B actually an appeal? This is not a missed base or a base left too soon. This is a base never reached. Whether somebody was put out for the third out or not, this is simply the batter-runner before reaching 1B. (But the case play makes it clear that ASA sees it another way.)

[JPRempe]

Originally Posted by greymule

Charles' sliding by the base and being tagged while trying to return to the base is identical in baseball & softball - that's a timing play and Abel's run will count in any softball sanctioning body I know about, along with any baseball sanctioning body I know about. That is not a missed base appeal.

In ASA, it is a missed base appeal if the fielder makes it so. ASA allows an immediate appeal of a missed base even if the runner is in the vicinity of the base. OBR does not.

As a BU, I won't even make a call (safe or out) in this situation (there's no call to make). Hopefully the defensive player will do the right thing and either tag the bag or the runner. This will result in an out, and no run scored.

How the situation described resulted in a dead ball appeal is the real question at hand...

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by Steve M

Edited to add - since they are experienced Cecil, why were they having a hard time with this? I can see a relatively inexperienced ump having trouble getting hold of this but would think it's pretty easily grasped by those with a fair amount of experience.

Exactly, which is why I asked for comment on the apparent reasons.

And apparently I was misled by the ASA wording.

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by Steve M
Edited to add - since they are experienced Cecil, why were they having a hard time with this? I can see a relatively inexperienced ump having trouble getting hold of this but would think it's pretty easily grasped by those with a fair amount of experience.

Originally Posted by CecilOne

Exactly, which is why I asked for comment on the apparent reasons.

And apparently I was misled by the ASA wording.

My OP asked for comments on the why of the uncertainty, including my misled reading of the ASA rule, even when knowing it should be "no run" in my other sanctions. That's what I wanted to discuss, not what the rule is and not mechanics. Partly because there are a number of rules like this and understanding why they are hard to get should help with learning. My list is down to:
- wording different even when meaning agrees
- not clear without "case book" or POE in some books
- umpires who do both sports
- infrequent occurrence