Improper Batter

[JefferMC]

How would you handle this one? I don't know that it matters, but rule set is NFHS (JV Tournament)

Home team going on defense in top of second inning substitutes "Number 8 for Number 6, the Flex." After retiring the visitors, Slot #4 (DP) comes up, B1 hits double, becoming R1. R1 gets to 3B when B2 (Slot #5) is retired (1-3) for out 1. B3 watches her third strike go by becoming out 2. Slot #7 comes up, but instead of Number 1 (who is in the line up), we get Number 8 (who, as you will remember, subbed in at the top of the inning for the Flex). By the time the defensive team's score keeper gets this to the head coach, two pitches have been thrown, one a passed ball on which R1 scores. The defensive team gets the PU's attention and explains the problem.

What is the correct resolution at this point? Should the PU have acted when the wrong player stepped in the batter's box? What if the defensive team had waited until the end of the at-bat but before another pitch is thrown?

--- Below is what actually happened ---

First of all, the substitution required a 4 minute conference between the head coach and both umpires before the umpire reported the substition to the other team. When the problem was explained to the PU (i.e. the flex doesn't bat, at least not without becoming a substitute for another player who is batting) he stated that the current situation was his fault as he had given the coach the wrong answer. After another 4 minute conference between the umpires and the offensive head coach, they eventually decided that they gave the wrong substitution (they were confused on which player was being subbed for, which was hogwash as it was confirmed at the time that the substitution was for the Flex) and that #8 should have been subbed for #1. They declared the two pitches "no pitches" and returned R1 to 3B, and B4 resumed the batters box at 0-0, and was struck out on 3 pitches, the runner never got another chance to score.

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by JefferMC

How would you handle this one? I don't know that it matters, but rule set is NFHS (JV Tournament)

Home team going on defense in top of second inning substitutes "Number 8 for Number 6, the Flex." After retiring the visitors, Slot #4 (DP) comes up, B1 hits double, becoming R1. R1 gets to 3B when B2 (Slot #5) is retired (1-3) for out 1. B3 watches her third strike go by becoming out 2. Slot #7 comes up, but instead of Number 1 (who is in the line up), we get Number 8 (who, as you will remember, subbed in at the top of the inning for the Flex). By the time the defensive team's score keeper gets this to the head coach, two pitches have been thrown, one a passed ball on which R1 scores. The defensive team gets the PU's attention and explains the problem.

What is the correct resolution at this point? Should the PU have acted when the wrong player stepped in the batter's box? What if the defensive team had waited until the end of the at-bat but before another pitch is thrown?

--- Below is what actually happened ---

First of all, the substitution required a 4 minute conference between the head coach and both umpires before the umpire reported the substition to the other team. When the problem was explained to the PU (i.e. the flex doesn't bat, at least not without becoming a substitute for another player who is batting) he stated that the current situation was his fault as he had given the coach the wrong answer. After another 4 minute conference between the umpires and the offensive head coach, they eventually decided that they gave the wrong substitution (they were confused on which player was being subbed for, which was hogwash as it was confirmed at the time that the substitution was for the Flex) and that #8 should have been subbed for #1. They declared the two pitches "no pitches" and returned R1 to 3B, and B4 resumed the batters box at 0-0, and was struck out on 3 pitches, the runner never got another chance to score.

If I read this correctly, they screwed up and then compounded it with a worse screwup.

[Dakota]

Leaving out who told what to whom, since it doesn't really matter, they subbed for the FLEX player on defense, then on offense the new FLEX came to bat in a batting order position other than the DP's position. This was discovered after a pitch had been thrown but before the completion of the batter's time at bat.

This is an illegal substitution, not a batting out of order (3-3-6g), so rule 3-4-2a applies. Previous play stands, but the batter is restricted to the bench and declared out, ending the inning. Slot #7 has lost her turn at bat. Slot#8 is due up the next time they are on offense.

[Skahtboi]

This is, in fact, an illegal substitute, so, under NFHS rules, I agree with Tom.

[Skahtboi]

Originally Posted by CecilOne

If I read this correctly, they screwed up and then compounded it with a worse screwup.

Ain't that the truth?!

[mcrowder]

Originally Posted by JefferMC

--- Below is what actually happened ---

First of all, the substitution required a 4 minute conference between the head coach and both umpires before the umpire reported the substition to the other team. When the problem was explained to the PU (i.e. the flex doesn't bat, at least not without becoming a substitute for another player who is batting) he stated that the current situation was his fault as he had given the coach the wrong answer. After another 4 minute conference between the umpires and the offensive head coach, they eventually decided that they gave the wrong substitution (they were confused on which player was being subbed for, which was hogwash as it was confirmed at the time that the substitution was for the Flex) and that #8 should have been subbed for #1. They declared the two pitches "no pitches" and returned R1 to 3B, and B4 resumed the batters box at 0-0, and was struck out on 3 pitches, the runner never got another chance to score.

So what happened when you (or your team's manager) protested the misapplication of the rule?

PS - EVERY coach should know this rule if they know only one rule. Real umpires know this backward and forward, but it seems that the only time anyone actually bats out of order, some volunteer yahoo (or 50-year veteran with 1 year experience) is in charge. Coaches - KNOW THIS RULE.

[Skahtboi]

Originally Posted by mcrowder

So what happened when you (or your team's manager) protested the misapplication of the rule?

PS - EVERY coach should know this rule if they know only one rule. Real umpires know this backward and forward, but it seems that the only time anyone actually bats out of order, some volunteer yahoo (or 50-year veteran with 1 year experience) is in charge. Coaches - KNOW THIS RULE.

mcrowder...this is not a BOO but an illegal substitution.

[SRW]

Originally Posted by Dakota

Leaving out who told what to whom, since it doesn't really matter, they subbed for the FLEX player on defense, then on offense the new FLEX came to bat in a batting order position other than the DP's position. This was discovered after a pitch had been thrown but before the completion of the batter's time at bat.

This is an illegal substitution, not a batting out of order (3-3-6g), so rule 3-4-2a applies. Previous play stands, but the batter is restricted to the bench and declared out, ending the inning. Slot #7 has lost her turn at bat. Slot#8 is due up the next time they are on offense.

I stand corrected. Original post has been removed.

[mcrowder]

You're right. My bad. Maybe I should LEARN THIS RULE!!!!

Seriously, though, the advice still holds, even if it turns out to be not appropriate for this thread. Sorry if I misled anyone.

[JefferMC]

As you might guess, I was keeping score for the team on defense during this "interesting situation." I didn't offer any solutions, I just pointed out that the batter was not entitled to the slot she was batting in, noting that she was in the 10th slot, where the player she replaced had been and that in that slot she would never legally bat. I then stood back an left it to them to to resolve. When he came back and said that they were going to make the count 0-0 on the batter and make her the legal substitute for 1, I only asked "are you putting the runner back on third?" to which the answer was "yes." Heck, I thought I knew what to do about BOO, but I didn't have a clue about illegal substitution. My rulebook was at home.

I never saw her score anyway, I was trying to get to the coach from the moment #8 turned so that I could see her number.

I think I saw 6 umpires at this two-field tournament. At least half of them I had pegged as small-ball umpires (pointing the finger and shooting the bow). I don't remember what camp these two were in. Other than this screw-up, I thought they did a good job.

DP/Flex confuses everyone, but I'm not sure how anybody messed it up this way.

[Skahtboi]

Originally Posted by JefferMC

DP/Flex confuses everyone, but I'm not sure how anybody messed it up this way.

It really doesn't have to. The DP/FLEX rule is really relatively simple, people just somehow make it confusing.

[JefferMC]

For my own mind, I've summarized DP/Flex this way:

1) Flex is a defensive only position, it never bats.
2) DP is an offensive position, with the option of also replacing any defensive player on the field without a declared "substitution."
3) You can't have one without the other.

Does that cover it?

[bigwes68]

Originally Posted by JefferMC

For my own mind, I've summarized DP/Flex this way:

1) Flex is a defensive only position, it never bats.
2) DP is an offensive position, with the option of also replacing any defensive player on the field without a declared "substitution."
3) You can't have one without the other.

Does that cover it?

Mostly. You might also throw in:

4) The Flex may bat or run, but only for the DP. In this case, the DP has left the game (but re-entry rule still applies).

And technically, if the Flex is batting for the DP, then you are down to a 9-player lineup and, in that case, you CAN have one without the other.

[JefferMC]

Originally Posted by bigwes68

Mostly. You might also throw in:

4) The Flex may bat or run, but only for the DP. In this case, the DP has left the game (but re-entry rule still applies).

And technically, if the Flex is batting for the DP, then you are down to a 9-player lineup and, in that case, you CAN have one without the other.

I think I would re-write that as:

4) The Flex may substitute for the DP.

I thought about adding that to begin with, but...

a) I was trying to keep it as simple as possible (but no simpler)
b) If you consider that the Flex doesn't actually have a batting order slot, then really we're talking about a normal substitution event
c) Once the Flex has substituted for the DP, you don't really have DP/Flex anymore, you pretty much have a normal player, so you don't really have one without the other.

[Dakota]

Originally Posted by JefferMC

b) If you consider that the Flex doesn't actually have a batting order slot, then really we're talking about a normal substitution event.

Only from the perspective of the DP. It is not a substitution event for FLEX. She has not left or re-entered; her re-entry status is unaffected.