Call

[mcrowder]

I think that by the book this is a clear cut out.

I also understand that by all standards of fairness, most umpires would not WANT to call this out, and for good reason.

My only question that might give us some wiggleroom here is the word "assist". During an awarded base, is a gentle shove in the general direction of the awarded base really assisting? Absent a printed definition in the rulebook we are left to using dictionary definitions of words. Assisting someone is aiding them in achieving a goal. Since this is an awarded base, and BR was not debilitated in any way, could it be determined (within the framework of umpire judgement at least) by the umpire that such a shove, even if in the right direction, was not assisting the runner? IOW, did the shove actually help the runner achieve the base? Would it not have been just as easy for the runner to achieve the base if the shove was in the wrong direction? Was anything actually done during said shove to actually ASSIST here?

I don't know --- I'm just throwing that out there.

[IRISHMAFIA]

"Seems to me if you werent quick enough to yell "ball game"

A semi-myth?. Does anyone know when and where someone came up with the idea that the words "ball game" carried some magic meaning?

To the best of my knowledge, only the NCAA acknowledges an umpire terminating a game by declaring "GAME". Anyone aware of any other association where these words have meaning?

I believe NCAA allows a coach to make a dead-ball appeal. That's why the it was a DMC. The ball wasn't dead and it tipped off the offense.

It's quite possible that the umpire would have let the assist go if the defense had not brought attention to the BR not yet advancing to 1B. The celebrating teammates did indeed literally push her toward 1B while telling her she had to touch the base.

The NPF follows NCAA rules.

[wadeintothem]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

A semi-myth?. Does anyone know when and where someone came up with the idea that the words "ball game" carried some magic meaning?

To the best of my knowledge, only the NCAA acknowledges an umpire terminating a game by declaring "GAME". Anyone aware of any other association where these words have meaning?

I believe NCAA allows a coach to make a dead-ball appeal. That's why the it was a DMC. The ball wasn't dead and it tipped off the offense.

It's quite possible that the umpire would have let the assist go if the defense had not brought attention to the BR not yet advancing to 1B. The celebrating teammates did indeed literally push her toward 1B while telling her she had to touch the base.

The NPF follows NCAA rules.

Well when i say it it means game over, and thats no myth and thats ASA. In timed tourneys I'll usually say "time has expired" if we are continuing play after time has expired and "thats the ball game" if its finished (drop dead etc).

I have NO CLUE why you would think this is a myth. Or actually, no clue as to whatchu talkin bout willis.

As to your scenario.. it wouldnt matter with the coaches appeal IMO unless you werent there. If it was just game over and you were still on the field you'd have to allow the dead ball appeal.. if it was live ball its out by INT. Pretty simple scenario actually.

Dont complicate it by pretending saying "thats the ball game" to end a game is a myth. Its just words used..of many which could be used.. and could not possibly be a myth.

OUt of curiosity though, which words do you believe you have been allowed to use by the immortal ASA to end a game?

[ChampaignBlue]

Originally Posted by wadeintothem

OUt of curiosity though, which words do you believe you have been allowed to use by the immortal ASA to end a game?

"Am I correct that you have no sub for the ejected player?"

[AtlUmpSteve]

It wouldn't matter if a "game" is stated in NCAA, or "ball game" in any game. The point is that no words create the end of a game or supercede the right of the defense to make an appeal while the umpires are still on the field.

You are the plate umpire when the apparent winning run crosses the plate in the bottom of the seventh. You decide to declare your "ball game" (and probably even give the nonsignal that actually means "end of quarter" in football, not end of game, which so many seem to want to do). But, the third baseman now appeals that the winning run missed third base; and she did. Are you trying to assert that the appeal will be ignored because you said "ball game"?? You better read ASA POE #1, 1.E.3.

The same applies in NCAA, even if the umpire declares the game.

[wadeintothem]

Originally Posted by AtlUmpSteve

It wouldn't matter if a "game" is stated in NCAA, or "ball game" in any game. The point is that no words create the end of a game or supercede the right of the defense to make an appeal while the umpires are still on the field.

You are the plate umpire when the apparent winning run crosses the plate in the bottom of the seventh. You decide to declare your "ball game" (and probably even give the nonsignal that actually means "end of quarter" in football, not end of game, which so many seem to want to do). But, the third baseman now appeals that the winning run missed third base; and she did. Are you trying to assert that the appeal will be ignored because you said "ball game"?? You better read ASA POE #1, 1.E.3.

The same applies in NCAA, even if the umpire declares the game.

Nope.. I never said that. I think you guys are reaching to make something out of this easy scenario; especially when 1/2 of what i said was cherry picked to make a moot point. Maybe think up a harder scenario if you must nit pick through the responses of this one to make this into a difficult scenario.

"Thats the ball game" is just words...YOU BETTER reread my original post and then my subsequent response as many times as you need to to see that I never said what you guys are inventing... and in fact said exactly what you guys are saying.

[mcrowder]

Originally Posted by wadeintothem

YOU BETTER reread my original post and then my subsequent response as many times as you need to to see that I never said what you guys are inventing... and in fact said exactly what you guys are saying.

Then what did you mean by, "When I say it ("ballgame!") it means the game is over"?

[mcrowder]

So Mike, is there a trick here, or are we headed to the next inning?

[wadeintothem]

Originally Posted by mcrowder

Then what did you mean by, "When I say it ("ballgame!") it means the game is over"?

Nope, you didnt read far enough into my response. You cherry picked one sentence. try again

[Dakota]

Professional players. They should know the game. OUT.

As to whether or not it was an assist, the assist was not in helping an injured player, but in keeping the BR from (for example) entering the dugout without having touched 1B.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by wadeintothem

Well when i say it it means game over, and thats no myth and thats ASA.

Sorry, but it's not ASA. Nowhere in Rule 5 or the Umpire Manual (End of Game Procedures, page 204) is there any mention of an umpire declaring the game over with any word or phrase.

I have NO CLUE why you would think this is a myth. Or actually, no clue as to whatchu talkin bout willis.

Because there are people out there, including umpires, that honestly believe that such a declaration is like a judge striking a gavel. I've heard the arguments on both side. "but the blue never said 'ball game' so it isn't over yet", or "you said 'ball game', so the games over. They cannot appeal something after the game's over".

As to your scenario.. it wouldnt matter with the coaches appeal IMO unless you werent there. If it was just game over and you were still on the field you'd have to allow the dead ball appeal.. if it was live ball its out by INT. Pretty simple scenario actually.

Agree, but in my scenario, the BR is still active and the ball live.

Dont complicate it by pretending saying "thats the ball game" to end a game is a myth. Its just words used..of many which could be used.. and could not possibly be a myth.

But it is a myth in some sets of rules such as ASA. It has no meaning, purpose or standing in the procedures ending a game. Even in NCAA where the rule book notes the umpire should declare "GAME", the umpires must still accept appeals/protests submitted in a timely fashion as the rules may permit. For all intent, the rule book ends the game, not any word or phrase.

[wadeintothem]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

Sorry, but it's not ASA. Nowhere in Rule 5 or the Umpire Manual (End of Game Procedures, page 204) is there any mention of an umpire declaring the game over with any word or phrase.



Because there are people out there, including umpires, that honestly believe that such a declaration is like a judge striking a gavel. I've heard the arguments on both side. "but the blue never said 'ball game' so it isn't over yet", or "you said 'ball game', so the games over. They cannot appeal something after the game's over".



Agree, but in my scenario, the BR is still active and the ball live.



But it is a myth in some sets of rules such as ASA. It has no meaning, purpose or standing in the procedures ending a game. Even in NCAA where the rule book notes the umpire should declare "GAME", the umpires must still accept appeals/protests submitted in a timely fashion as the rules may permit. For all intent, the rule book ends the game, not any word or phrase.

I'll type this slowly. i dont want you to miss it, i've typed it several times before but you missed it.

Ok .. here goes.. slowly

"thats the ball game is just words"

its words used.. thats all.

Got it?

Im sure you just wisp away without any words and sneak off the ball field or perhaps announce

"we are presently in a dead ball period prior to my depature upon which signifies the end of the game"

but I just say "thats the ball game"

If theres an appeal while i'm there, i deal with that.

[pob14]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

Because there are people out there, including umpires, that honestly believe that such a declaration is like a judge striking a gavel.

Way off topic, but that's adding myth to myth.

I've been an attorney for going on eighteen years now, spending nearly every working day of that time in the criminal courts.

In all that time, I've seen a judge strike a gavel exactly once. And that was to quiet down spectators. Most courtrooms I've been in don't even have gavels on the bench. At least in central Illinois, judges don't gavel cases open or closed any more.

Just FYI.

[mcrowder]

Originally Posted by wadeintothem

OUt of curiosity though, which words do you believe you have been allowed to use by the immortal ASA to end a game?

Scary stuff there Wade, but I'll only address this part...

There are no words that magically end the game. PU calling "Ballgame!" may be a polite way of informing the players, coaches, fans, etc that the ballgame is in fact over. But it is not A) necessary or B) authoritative. If an umpire utters this when the ballgame is not in fact over, the game is simply not over. If an umpire fails to utter this when the game IS in fact over, the game is still over.

The game ends itself. It's really that simple. The game is over when it ends. Words by the umpire do not effect that, they only publicize it.