Call

[mcrowder]

Originally Posted by bellnier

I interpreted the OP as runner on 3rd scoring before batter was 'assisted'. Play still live. Run counts. Runner then was assisted...runner out. Doesn't chronology count in this sitch?

Bell ... if the BR is out, then no runs score. No run can score on a play where the 3rd out is made on the BR prior to reaching first base or any other runner on a force play.

The question is ... is the runner out for being assisted in this sitch.

To me, all indicators lead toward a yes, and an 11th inning. But Mike has been accused of trickery in the past, and there may be something else to this.

(Note - I don't believe Passing is at all at issue here).

[AtlUmpSteve]

I think it is as simple as it appears. No run can score if 3rd out is batter-runner not safely reaching first; and it seems clear that BR was illegally assisted. In softball, we have a new inning.

I believe baseball states all forced runners are also awarded the next base (as opposed to may advance without liability to be put out UNLESS....). That may be where bluezebra Bob got his thought process.

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by bluezebra

First, there is no reference to what rules governed the game. ... snip ... Bob

Posted by "Johnny-one-rule".

[whiskers_ump]

Defense coach approaches the plate umpire and protests that the BR never touched 1B. Okay, DMC, should have waited.

Appears time had been called, or should have been......Would appear to time out....Score the run

[whiskers_ump]

Originally Posted by CecilOne

Posted by "Johnny-one-rule".

Agree with CecilOne, has to be ASA with Mike posting.....

[IRISHMAFIA]

A lot of quick responses. Let's move to the next step:

NPF, celebrating teammates were not the runners.

[tcblue13]

I might be going to the bottom of the 10th
BR is still out

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

A lot of quick responses. Let's move to the next step:

NPF, celebrating teammates were not the runners.

Does NPF use ASA rules? I guess this must have actually happened, and it looks like assistance, then again what about Glen's time out or not.
Didn't think they were the runners, but back to my question about teammates gathering in the way of the defense.

[Mountaineer]

See it's plays like this that piss me off! I don't believe the intent was to "assist" the runner but I know you can't judge intent on this. They were excited and were just getting the player to go to first - so they probably just shoved her "playfully". The only runners that matter in this are the runners at first and third - they must complete there journey to the next base. They are probably out by rule, but I'm gonna try to figure a way out of calling the out - if I can't figure a way out, next inning.

[NDblue]

I didn't see any assistance to the BR.

[wadeintothem]

Seems to me if you werent quick enough to yell "ball game" and beat feet during a celebration - ya gotta ring up the br and prepare for a new inning.
BR is out (INT)
The run doesnt count due to out at 1B

even if not, would be out on appeal. So the BR is out 6 ways from sunday but either way

You are screwed

Thats my guess.

[mcrowder]

I think that by the book this is a clear cut out.

I also understand that by all standards of fairness, most umpires would not WANT to call this out, and for good reason.

My only question that might give us some wiggleroom here is the word "assist". During an awarded base, is a gentle shove in the general direction of the awarded base really assisting? Absent a printed definition in the rulebook we are left to using dictionary definitions of words. Assisting someone is aiding them in achieving a goal. Since this is an awarded base, and BR was not debilitated in any way, could it be determined (within the framework of umpire judgement at least) by the umpire that such a shove, even if in the right direction, was not assisting the runner? IOW, did the shove actually help the runner achieve the base? Would it not have been just as easy for the runner to achieve the base if the shove was in the wrong direction? Was anything actually done during said shove to actually ASSIST here?

I don't know --- I'm just throwing that out there.

[IRISHMAFIA]

"Seems to me if you werent quick enough to yell "ball game"

A semi-myth?. Does anyone know when and where someone came up with the idea that the words "ball game" carried some magic meaning?

To the best of my knowledge, only the NCAA acknowledges an umpire terminating a game by declaring "GAME". Anyone aware of any other association where these words have meaning?

I believe NCAA allows a coach to make a dead-ball appeal. That's why the it was a DMC. The ball wasn't dead and it tipped off the offense.

It's quite possible that the umpire would have let the assist go if the defense had not brought attention to the BR not yet advancing to 1B. The celebrating teammates did indeed literally push her toward 1B while telling her she had to touch the base.

The NPF follows NCAA rules.

[wadeintothem]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

A semi-myth?. Does anyone know when and where someone came up with the idea that the words "ball game" carried some magic meaning?

To the best of my knowledge, only the NCAA acknowledges an umpire terminating a game by declaring "GAME". Anyone aware of any other association where these words have meaning?

I believe NCAA allows a coach to make a dead-ball appeal. That's why the it was a DMC. The ball wasn't dead and it tipped off the offense.

It's quite possible that the umpire would have let the assist go if the defense had not brought attention to the BR not yet advancing to 1B. The celebrating teammates did indeed literally push her toward 1B while telling her she had to touch the base.

The NPF follows NCAA rules.

Well when i say it it means game over, and thats no myth and thats ASA. In timed tourneys I'll usually say "time has expired" if we are continuing play after time has expired and "thats the ball game" if its finished (drop dead etc).

I have NO CLUE why you would think this is a myth. Or actually, no clue as to whatchu talkin bout willis.

As to your scenario.. it wouldnt matter with the coaches appeal IMO unless you werent there. If it was just game over and you were still on the field you'd have to allow the dead ball appeal.. if it was live ball its out by INT. Pretty simple scenario actually.

Dont complicate it by pretending saying "thats the ball game" to end a game is a myth. Its just words used..of many which could be used.. and could not possibly be a myth.

OUt of curiosity though, which words do you believe you have been allowed to use by the immortal ASA to end a game?

[ChampaignBlue]

Originally Posted by wadeintothem

OUt of curiosity though, which words do you believe you have been allowed to use by the immortal ASA to end a game?

"Am I correct that you have no sub for the ejected player?"