Little League softball substitutions

[Mountaineer]

Originally Posted by BlitzkriegBob

Therefore, if Sub1 enters the game in the third inning of a shortened game (e.g. run rule or weather) and plays six defensive outs but does not get to bat, there is no penalty.

Might want to check that - I think that weather has nothing to do with mp requirements. I am positive that a run-shortened game has nothing to do with mp. Curfew however DOES negate the mp. I could be wrong . . . but think I'm right.

[UmpireErnie]

Originally Posted by Mountaineer

Might want to check that - I think that weather has nothing to do with mp requirements. I am positive that a run-shortened game has nothing to do with mp. Curfew however DOES negate the mp. I could be wrong . . . but think I'm right.

LL Softball Regulation IV (i) Note 2: “There is no exception to this rule unless the game is shortened for any reason at which time the Local League may elect not to impose a penalty on the manager/coach.”

This seems to indicate that if a player does not get her minimum playing time because of a shortened game that the league can waive any disciplinary action against the manager/coach but that the player who did not get her playing time still has to start the next game and play the rest of the time she missed in this game plus her six outs and one at bat for the next game before she can be removed from the next game.

This would make sense. You can’t expect the coach to predict that they will score a bunch of runs or that it is going to rain so the game might only go four innings instead of six.

[Mountaineer]

First of all, I'm glad I'm our area Big League director where MP isn't an issue!

Secondly, I'm looking at the tournament rules which does differ slightly. A game is NOT considered shortened if the home team does not complete the bottom of the 6th or 7th inning due to winning the game. Maybe I'm reading too much into this, but if the game only goes 4 or 5 innings, they did not complete the 6th or 7th due to winning the game. According to the way I read it, that doesn't count as a shortened game and in tournament play is grounds for protest and forfeiture. In regular season? That's supposed to be made up the next game as you wrote and I vew that as a local league problem rather than a district problem.

Are we in agreement with that?

[UmpireErnie]

Absolutely. I am not even looking at tournament rules yet, it’s still regular season time. I am definatly talking about and quoting regular season rules and regulations as in the LL Softball rule book.

[BlitzkriegBob]

I don't do much LL any more since the organization is not very well run in this area and they don't even provide me with a rule book so that I can verify that things haven't changed in the last 4 years. However, I was fortunate enough to be a part of LL District 16 in Texas (home of 1966 World Series Champion Westbury American LL and 2000 US Champion Bellaire LL) for many years as a manager, umpire, and tournament director. I can relate a personal experience I had there which I believe is the main reason that MPR do not and should not apply to a shortened game.

Team A is having a great game where everyone is knocking the cover off the ball. After two innings, Team A, which is the home team, subs in all their bench players. By this point, they are leading 14-0. In the third inning, Team B finally finds a pitcher who is throwing the ball well and gets the side out in order. Top of the fourth, Team A still leading by 14-0, but Team A has two players who have still not batted. Team A's manager, not knowing the rules (including the local rule which not only states that MPR do not apply in a game such as this, but also that there is no requirement that these two players must start the next game and get their missed at-bat in addition to their required at-bat and six defensive outs before they are replaced) has his best pitcher on the mound who, as instructed, proceeds to walk every player on Team B. No pitch outs, just the catcher setting up a foot outside and the pitcher lobbing the ball to him. He walks 8 straight hitters, resulting in 5 runs for Team B, before retiring the side.

This was a complete farce, and everyone in the park was disgusted by this, but it was not anyone's job to inform the manager of Team A that what he was doing was completely unnecessary. Team B gets up to bat, has their two remaining players get their AB's, and they are happy that they not only won the game (this was a doubleheader night and so the game was played with a time limit, which we did not usually have), but also avoided any penalties by meeting MPR. In the meantime, Team B's parents want blood, Team A's parents are cheering for Team B to complete the comeback and win the game, and the umpires are walking off the field immediately looking for the league President to complain. I happened to be the manager of Team B in this case, and I knew exactly what was going on, but there wasn't anything I could do about it except nod my head in agreement when Team A's manager was chastised and educated by the Player Rep at our usual post-game watering hole congregation.

When you watch the LL World Series in a couple of months, I'm sure you'll hear an announcer warn the viewers that Taiwan might have to forfeit the game they are leading over Russia 29-0 because they haven't yet met MPR, but it will be another instance of the announcer not knowing the rules. Heck, I think somebody finally informed Harold Reynolds about this last year because he actually got it right for the first time. So unless the rules have changed since 2002, even at tournament time MPR do not apply in a shortened game. And yes, I have seen it happen at tournament time also, as a site director. District 16 was developing a new league and this new league only had one major league team, which did double duty as the league tournament team and their first year they lost their two games by a combined score of about 50-0. I could only imagine what the final scores would have been if the opposing managers had to tell their players that they had to keep hitting the ball in the third inning because the 14th player on the roster didn't have his AB yet. Instead they could tell their first three batters to swing at the first three pitches no matter where they were so that the carnage could end.

[BlitzkriegBob]

Mountaineer,

Read a little more into the tournament rules that you cited, and I guess I interpret it a little differently than you do. I could be wrong, but I interpret the statement "A game is NOT considered shortened if the home team does not complete the bottom of the 6th or 7th inning due to winning the game" to mean that if a team goes ahead by 10 runs in the 6th or 7th inning and it is stopped by the mercy rule, that in that particular instance the game is not considered shortened. It would still be considered shortened if the mercy rule is invoked in the 4th or 5th inning. Rule 9-d states "To be assured of meeting the minimum play requirements, in a complete game, all substitutes who have not entered the game previously SHOULD ENTER THE GAME DEFENSIVELY at or before the start of their half of the third inning (visitors) or fourth inning (home)."

I could very well be wrong, but it seems to me that they are trying to make sure that a manager doesn't have the ability to cover his mistake of not meeting MPR by piling on runs in the last inning.

Of one thing I believe there is no doubt...that with the MPR now being only three defensive outs and one at-bat, there is no reason that a manager should not be able to fulfill that. It was a little harder when the MPR at tournament time were still six defensive outs and one at-bat.

[CecilOne]

I think ""A game is NOT considered shortened if the home team does not complete the bottom of the 6th or 7th inning due to winning the game"" only applies to when a team scores the winning run in the bottom of the last inning scheduled to be played or is ahead when the bottom of that inning arrives,