Little League softball substitutions

[UmpireErnie]

Hi! Looking for a Little League Softball rules expert. LL softball has a wild substitution rule 3.03.

Please tell me if these are true statements.

1. A starter may be substituted for prior to playing six outs and completing a time at bat since she can return later to complete her playing requirements.

2. Only a starter may reenter the game. A substitute who leaves the game is done unless she returns under the injury exception listed in 3.03 Note2.

3. When a starter leaves the game, she may not reenter until the player she replaces has plays six defensive outs and completed one time at bat.

4. When a starter reenters the game, she may do so in any spot in the batting order.

5. If a team players do not all complete their playing requirements, the game still stands. The team must get those players the rest of their required playing time for the game they were shorted in plus all of their required playing time for the next game at the start of the next game.

Thanks in advance for your input.

[Az.Ump]

[QUOTE=UmpireErnie]Hi! Looking for a Little League Softball rules expert. LL softball has a wild substitution rule 3.03.

Please tell me if these are true statements.

1. A starter may be substituted for prior to playing six outs and completing a time at bat since she can return later to complete her playing requirements.

Yes

2. Only a starter may reenter the game. A substitute who leaves the game is done unless she returns under the injury exception listed in 3.03 Note2.

Yes (regular season only)

3. When a starter leaves the game, she may not reenter until the player she replaces has plays six defensive outs and completed one time at bat.

Yes (Tournament has less MPR)

4. When a starter reenters the game, she may do so in any spot in the batting order.

Yes (regular season only)

5. If a team players do not all complete their playing requirements, the game still stands. The team must get those players the rest of their required playing time for the game they were shorted in plus all of their required playing time for the next game at the start of the next game.

Yes (This should be reported to the BOD for proper actoin aginst the manager)


Paul

[UmpireErnie]

Thanks, Paul.

To take it just a bit further, let’s see if I am applying these rules correctly. Assume regular season here I haven’t even read tournament rules yet!

Play 1: Starter9 who started in the ninth spot in the lineup is replaced at the beginning of the second inning by Sub1. Starter9 has played three defensive outs and has not yet batted at the time of the substitution.

Ruling: Legal. Although Starter9 has not yet played six outs and had one at bat, she is a starter and will be able to and is required to return to the game later to finish her playing requirements.

Play 2: Continuing from above, in the third inning the manager reports that Starter9 will reenter and replace Starter1 in the first spot in the order. Starter1 has played six outs and had one at bat. At this point Sub1 has played three outs and had no at bats.

Ruling: Although Starter9 needs to come back into the game to finish her playing requirements, she cannot do so until the player she replaced (Sub1) has played six outs and completed one at bat. It does not matter that Sub1 is not the player being removed at this time. The Umpire should not allow the substitution.

Play 3: Continuing same game, at the start of the fifth inning the manager reports that now Starter9 will reenter and replace Starter1 in the first spot in the order. Starter1 has played nine outs and batted twice, and Sub1 has played six outs and batted once.

Ruling: Legal. Since Sub1 who had earlier replaced Starter9 has played six outs and had one at bat Starter9 is now eligible to reenter the game anywhere in the order.

How did I do?

Ernie

[BlitzkriegBob]

Originally Posted by UmpireErnie

Ruling: Although Starter9 needs to come back into the game to finish her playing requirements, she cannot do so until the player she replaced (Sub1) has played six outs and completed one at bat. It does not matter that Sub1 is not the player being removed at this time. The Umpire should not allow the substitution.

The only thing I notice that is not 100% correct is your wording here. Rather than reading "she cannot do so until the player she replaced (Sub1)" it should read "she cannot do so until the player who replaced her (Sub1)"

Also, as a side note concerning #5 in your OP, if there is a shortened game, then minimum play rules do not apply. Therefore, if Sub1 enters the game in the third inning of a shortened game (e.g. run rule or weather) and plays six defensive outs but does not get to bat, there is no penalty.

[UmpireErnie]

Thanks Bob

"she cannot do so until the player who replaced her (Sub1)"

Yes, that is the wording that I was thinking even though it was not what I was typing!

I probably seem like I am beating a dead horse but LL sub rules are sooooo different that I don’t trust myself. Being able to have a batter come back in a different spot in the order seems especially wild.

Ernie

[CecilOne]

If "especially wild" equals ridiculous.

[Az.Ump]

Originally Posted by CecilOne

If "especially wild" equals ridiculous.

Cecil,

Can’t say that I disagree. This is a fairly new substitution rule. Before it was like all others where the players were always tied to the one batting slot unless injuries caused reentry of a player. L.L. offers the option of CBO but has never mandated it. Under the old substitution rules you often got a split between the starters and subs of either 2 and 4 innings or 3 and 3. This rule allows a 12 player roster to get the majority of the players 4 innings in a full 6 inning game. If the manager subs in the top of the third, the starters who came out can be eligible to reenter in the 5th and if put in for other starters who have stayed in the game rather than the subs who came in during the 3rd, then no player would have played less than 4 innings. Convoluted to say the least. It requires the umpire to check with the scorer to verify that the starter's sub has completed their MPR prior to allowing reentry. In some locations during the all-star tournament they remove the responsibility of changes from the umpire and require all changes to go through the official score keeper.

Paul

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by Az.Ump

Cecil,

Can’t say that I disagree. This is a fairly new substitution rule. Before it was like all others where the players were always tied to the one batting slot unless injuries caused reentry of a player. L.L. offers the option of CBO but has never mandated it. Under the old substitution rules you often got a split between the starters and subs of either 2 and 4 innings or 3 and 3. This rule allows a 12 player roster to get the majority of the players 4 innings in a full 6 inning game. If the manager subs in the top of the third, the starters who came out can be eligible to reenter in the 5th and if put in for other starters who have stayed in the game rather than the subs who came in during the 3rd, then no player would have played less than 4 innings. Convoluted to say the least. It requires the umpire to check with the scorer to verify that the starter's sub has completed their MPR prior to allowing reentry. In some locations during the all-star tournament they remove the responsibility of changes from the umpire and require all changes to go through the official score keeper.

Paul

OK, so my super-fast granddaughter can be the leadoff batter for her team; then if not coming to bat in the next inning can be replaced by a sub; and then after the sub completes MPR; she can run for whichever slow runner gets on base.

[Az.Ump]

Originally Posted by CecilOne

OK, so my super-fast granddaughter can be the leadoff batter for her team; then if not coming to bat in the next inning can be replaced by a sub; and then after the sub completes MPR; she can run for whichever slow runner gets on base.

Yes she could and if her teammate is the Barry Bonds of her team she could bat in the last inning anywhere you want her to. Right after you put speedy in would work just fine. Just remember any one reentered must than meet MPR again inorder to be substituted for. So if you put the good hitter in and now want to pull her for speedy, no can do. Isn't that just special?

Paul

[UmpireErnie]

LL does not seem to recognize an “Illegal Substitute”. What happens if a player enters the game in violation of 3.03? Obviously if we detect it at the time of substitution we simply don’t allow it to happen. But what if we miss it or if the substitution is not reported and play begins?

[Mountaineer]

Originally Posted by BlitzkriegBob

Therefore, if Sub1 enters the game in the third inning of a shortened game (e.g. run rule or weather) and plays six defensive outs but does not get to bat, there is no penalty.

Might want to check that - I think that weather has nothing to do with mp requirements. I am positive that a run-shortened game has nothing to do with mp. Curfew however DOES negate the mp. I could be wrong . . . but think I'm right.

[UmpireErnie]

Originally Posted by Mountaineer

Might want to check that - I think that weather has nothing to do with mp requirements. I am positive that a run-shortened game has nothing to do with mp. Curfew however DOES negate the mp. I could be wrong . . . but think I'm right.

LL Softball Regulation IV (i) Note 2: “There is no exception to this rule unless the game is shortened for any reason at which time the Local League may elect not to impose a penalty on the manager/coach.”

This seems to indicate that if a player does not get her minimum playing time because of a shortened game that the league can waive any disciplinary action against the manager/coach but that the player who did not get her playing time still has to start the next game and play the rest of the time she missed in this game plus her six outs and one at bat for the next game before she can be removed from the next game.

This would make sense. You can’t expect the coach to predict that they will score a bunch of runs or that it is going to rain so the game might only go four innings instead of six.

[Mountaineer]

First of all, I'm glad I'm our area Big League director where MP isn't an issue!

Secondly, I'm looking at the tournament rules which does differ slightly. A game is NOT considered shortened if the home team does not complete the bottom of the 6th or 7th inning due to winning the game. Maybe I'm reading too much into this, but if the game only goes 4 or 5 innings, they did not complete the 6th or 7th due to winning the game. According to the way I read it, that doesn't count as a shortened game and in tournament play is grounds for protest and forfeiture. In regular season? That's supposed to be made up the next game as you wrote and I vew that as a local league problem rather than a district problem.

Are we in agreement with that?

[UmpireErnie]

Absolutely. I am not even looking at tournament rules yet, it’s still regular season time. I am definatly talking about and quoting regular season rules and regulations as in the LL Softball rule book.

[BlitzkriegBob]

I don't do much LL any more since the organization is not very well run in this area and they don't even provide me with a rule book so that I can verify that things haven't changed in the last 4 years. However, I was fortunate enough to be a part of LL District 16 in Texas (home of 1966 World Series Champion Westbury American LL and 2000 US Champion Bellaire LL) for many years as a manager, umpire, and tournament director. I can relate a personal experience I had there which I believe is the main reason that MPR do not and should not apply to a shortened game.

Team A is having a great game where everyone is knocking the cover off the ball. After two innings, Team A, which is the home team, subs in all their bench players. By this point, they are leading 14-0. In the third inning, Team B finally finds a pitcher who is throwing the ball well and gets the side out in order. Top of the fourth, Team A still leading by 14-0, but Team A has two players who have still not batted. Team A's manager, not knowing the rules (including the local rule which not only states that MPR do not apply in a game such as this, but also that there is no requirement that these two players must start the next game and get their missed at-bat in addition to their required at-bat and six defensive outs before they are replaced) has his best pitcher on the mound who, as instructed, proceeds to walk every player on Team B. No pitch outs, just the catcher setting up a foot outside and the pitcher lobbing the ball to him. He walks 8 straight hitters, resulting in 5 runs for Team B, before retiring the side.

This was a complete farce, and everyone in the park was disgusted by this, but it was not anyone's job to inform the manager of Team A that what he was doing was completely unnecessary. Team B gets up to bat, has their two remaining players get their AB's, and they are happy that they not only won the game (this was a doubleheader night and so the game was played with a time limit, which we did not usually have), but also avoided any penalties by meeting MPR. In the meantime, Team B's parents want blood, Team A's parents are cheering for Team B to complete the comeback and win the game, and the umpires are walking off the field immediately looking for the league President to complain. I happened to be the manager of Team B in this case, and I knew exactly what was going on, but there wasn't anything I could do about it except nod my head in agreement when Team A's manager was chastised and educated by the Player Rep at our usual post-game watering hole congregation.

When you watch the LL World Series in a couple of months, I'm sure you'll hear an announcer warn the viewers that Taiwan might have to forfeit the game they are leading over Russia 29-0 because they haven't yet met MPR, but it will be another instance of the announcer not knowing the rules. Heck, I think somebody finally informed Harold Reynolds about this last year because he actually got it right for the first time. So unless the rules have changed since 2002, even at tournament time MPR do not apply in a shortened game. And yes, I have seen it happen at tournament time also, as a site director. District 16 was developing a new league and this new league only had one major league team, which did double duty as the league tournament team and their first year they lost their two games by a combined score of about 50-0. I could only imagine what the final scores would have been if the opposing managers had to tell their players that they had to keep hitting the ball in the third inning because the 14th player on the roster didn't have his AB yet. Instead they could tell their first three batters to swing at the first three pitches no matter where they were so that the carnage could end.