Illegal Pitch Mechanics-ASA

[miznj]

If an illegal pitch is a delayed dead ball why does p.221 of the rule book state "Do not call time until the pitch has reached the plate or the play on a batted ball has been completed." Sit: R2 caught stealing 3rd on IP. It was a very close play for what would have been the 3rd out of the inning late in a tie game. Off coach started barking as soon as I made the out call and while I was in the process of making the award. Def coach thinking I was intimidated into changing my call came out in a manner that resulted in him being sent to the showers. I did extend my arm and verbal "illegal pitch" at the time of the infraction. My partner referred to the above text an insisted that an IP is dead as soon as it is not hit. He said that the whole mess should have been avoided. I disagree. So which is it?

Thanks!

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by miznj

If an illegal pitch is a delayed dead ball why does p.221 of the rule book state "Do not call time until the pitch has reached the plate or the play on a batted ball has been completed." Sit: R2 caught stealing 3rd on IP. It was a very close play for what would have been the 3rd out of the inning late in a tie game. Off coach started barking as soon as I made the out call and while I was in the process of making the award. Def coach thinking I was intimidated into changing my call came out in a manner that resulted in him being sent to the showers. I did extend my arm and verbal "illegal pitch" at the time of the infraction. My partner referred to the above text an insisted that an IP is dead as soon as it is not hit. He said that the whole mess should have been avoided. I disagree. So which is it?

Thanks!

I'm assuming the pitch was released and that "R2 caught stealing 3rd on IP" means R2 was running before the pitch reached the plate and that you were the BU and called the IP.
My guess is that your partner meant that the out call should not have been made, just "dead ball" as soon as the pitch reached, before or during the catcher's throw. OK, except that with a runner in motion who possibly could get more than one base; we can't kill it until the result of the play is known for coach's option.

[WestMichBlue]

Originally Posted by miznj

My partner referred to the above text an insisted that an IP is dead as soon as it is not hit. He said that the whole mess should have been avoided. I disagree. So which is it? Thanks!

DDB - the ball remains alive until the conclusion of the play!

You would have looked even worse if you killed the ball while R1 was still running and F2 threw the ball into LF, allowing R1 to score.

Let the play run out and, based on the ending positions of all runners, you can make a penalty decision. Because the batter did not reach a base and the runner did not advance one base, the coach gets option. In the play as stated, the coach is going to take the penalty (wipes out the out and sends R1 to 3B anyway). But in the scenareo I suggested, coach might want to take the play (R1 scoring, with whatever the pitch was called).

The point is that no once can make those decision until the play reaches a conclusion.

WMB

[miznj]

Do not call time until the pitch has reached the plate or the play on a batted ball has been completed."

I gave multiple examples of plays to my partner but he continues to cite the above language. Why does this not simply say when all action has been completed? We had another game together and he told me that he would kill the play if faced with the same situation. grrrr.... I cant convince him that he is incorrect. Just to throw it out there, does anyone agree with his interpretation.?

Mike

[WestMichBlue]

Originally Posted by miznj

Do not call time until the pitch has reached the plate or the play on a batted ball has been completed."

I gave multiple examples of plays to my partner but he continues to cite the above language. Why does this not simply say when all action has been completed? We had another game together and he told me that he would kill the play if faced with the same situation. grrrr.... I cant convince him that he is incorrect. Just to throw it out there, does anyone agree with his interpretation.?

Mike

ASA POE 15 Delayed Dead Ball: "There are five situations when a violation of a rule occurs, it is recognized by an umpire and the ball remains live until the conslusion of the play. These situatioins are: A) Illegal pitch. . . . . . . . . . . . . B) C) D) E) . . . Once the entire play is completed in each situation, the proper enforcement should be made."


WMB

[MNBlue]

[QUOTE=miznj]... as soon as I made the out call and while I was in the process of making the award. Def coach thinking I was intimidated into changing my call came out in a manner that resulted in him being sent to the showers. I did extend my arm and verbal "illegal pitch" at the time of the infraction.

QUOTE]
It appears that you made the IP call and when the runner was thrown out at third, you made the out call. Since you made the out call, you knew the runner would not be out because of the award, yet you still called the runner out.

I don't know if my assumption is correct here, but in this situation, would our mechanic be the same as the DDB on obstruction where the obstructed runner is played on and out. That is, do not make the out call, call a dead ball, announce the obstruction and the award.

I believe that the confusion in the OP could have been avoided had the BU, who called the IP and called the runner out, would not have called the runner out. Thoughts?

[Dakota]

Originally Posted by MNBlue

I believe that the confusion in the OP could have been avoided had the BU, who called the IP and called the runner out, would not have called the runner out. Thoughts?

If you do not call the runner out, you are adding to the confusion, since the OC will need to make a choice, persumably without knowing his runner is out. Further, this cannot be a general mechanic, since in general, there can be multiple attempts at getting outs, runners advancing, etc.

[MNBlue]

Originally Posted by Dakota

If you do not call the runner out, you are adding to the confusion, since the OC will need to make a choice, persumably without knowing his runner is out. Further, this cannot be a general mechanic, since in general, there can be multiple attempts at getting outs, runners advancing, etc.

I forgot that little, but important, part.

[commteacher]

Originally Posted by Dakota

If you do not call the runner out, you are adding to the confusion, since the OC will need to make a choice, persumably without knowing his runner is out. Further, this cannot be a general mechanic, since in general, there can be multiple attempts at getting outs, runners advancing, etc.

If you do call the runner out she may just trot off to the dugout and never receivce the entitled award. DDB, Hold all runners make appropriate awards.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by commteacher

If you do call the runner out she may just trot off to the dugout and never receivce the entitled award. DDB, Hold all runners make appropriate awards.

You always make the call you see unless you are the umpire who called OBS and then it's just "dead ball".

All is irrelevant as the ball is going to be ruled dead anyhow, so the runner can enter whatever area they choose.

[kycat1]

Is this slow pitch or fast? In slow pitch the ball is still alive for runners to try to steal a base if they want. Isn't this correct. What are you talking about awarding a base?

[Skahtboi]

Originally Posted by kycat1

Is this slow pitch or fast? In slow pitch the ball is still alive for runners to try to steal a base if they want. Isn't this correct. What are you talking about awarding a base?

Both. A DDB(delayed dead ball) means that no action is stopped until necessary.

[Bmorebirdflu52]

I disagree with most of the post but agree with first post. Here is my reasoning. Since it's delayed dead ball other than illegal pitch mechanics, you did 100 percent right. I work with partners all the time that annoy me with thinking they are right no matter what. We are a brotherhood and should respect we are different but instead of proving him wrong. Ask a question. We have to dance around mens egos. So ask this question. If you don't allow play to happen and call the play the way it happened then how can offensive have choice. If your partner is right then it would be dead ball immediately. If u make no call for stollen base how can offensive choose to take penalty or play. If the runner is safe offensive will take play of runner is out then they take penalty. That's the exact point of it being delayed dead ball. Again ask yourself what's the point of delay dead ball if you make no call on the play. Let the play unfold then sort it out. You did it 100 percent correctly and refuse to believe different. When looking at the rule as a whole it makes no sense to do it any other way. Now if you have a partner that refuses to follow the rules I would simply refuse to work with them since they can make your job harder. If you did not call the runner out then the offense has to choice then there is no reason to have the rule written the way it is. All delayed deal balls are called after the play is over and all other mechanics and calls happen as normal until the end of the play then it's dead and sorted out. Hope that helps​

[AtlUmpSteve]

Several issues here.

The partner is, as occasionally happens, literally correct in the exact wording in the manual; the problem is, as if most often is with those that only accept the exact literal direction, that the manual direction is flawed. It doesn't take into account a play which rightfully must extend the DDB period without the ball being batted!! So, I'm not refusing to work with him, nor will I continue to argue with him. I'm calling it as I believe it should be called, and if he kills the live ball, he can explain that to whichever coach he has to deal with.

Nor is either possible mechanic at the end of the play free of issues; we have heard both sides here, while the manual is unclear. My personal opinion falls on the side of treating it the same as obstruction; if I called the IP (or heard it and know it happened), I'm calling a dead ball, not an out; but also clearly NOT calling the runner safe. Then when the dust clears, I am LOUDLY and clearly announcing to the offensive coach (in USA/ASA and NFHS) the option of the result of the play (your runner would be OUT, and you get the result of the pitch call), or the enforcement of the IP (it's a ball on your batter and each runner is awarded one base). I am also facing the defensive coach and bench while verbalizing this LOUDLY, as his hearing exactly what is happening is the key to moving forward.

In NCAA (I did specify USA/ASA and NFHS), I am directed to tell the PU, and the PU gets to notify the coaches of the option, instead of the BU that made the call. If the PU called the IP, and I'm unaware, I call the out, and he can/should address the option and place the runner back on base. YES, even if she left the field (as she SHOULD when I call her out).

Just how I would handle it; I'm sure others could handle it differently.

[IRISHMAFIA]

11 years! Wow!